Re: [ox-en] Project / Book

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Hi Andreas, StefanMZ, Michel, all-


OK, well I have now caught up a bit with the status of Athina and Phoebe's book project. I had not seen the various webpages on P2P-F etc. 


I suppose the central question is, would it be a good idea to have two books - one a broad-based academic resource on peer-to-peer production, governance and - ahem - property (@Athina and Phoebe: I would def. try to get Yochai Benkler - Coases Penguin or whatever - foundational author...) another a shorter and more strictly marxist-political, more engaged and focused analysis of peer production? 


From one perspective [a], this might seem as too much, as "crowding the market" with similar products. Fair enough.


From another perspective [b], it would make sense - the books seen as complementary rather than competing, and though there would inevitably be a bit of overlap, this could be minimised with some collaboration between projects.


From the strict perspective of what would be best for [ox], it seems clear to me that [b] would make sense, but what do I know - I'm only new right? ;-)


I wonder what the other potential authors I mentioned - Stefan Mn, Johan S, Christian S, think about this? Also Raoul V, if he is reading, would obviously have something to contribute.


@ StefanMz - thanks for positive feedback, appreciate your points but will wait to engage with them until community has discussed more.


cheers,
Mathieu

----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Meretz <stefan-/[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 8:03 am
Subject: Re: [ox-en] Project / Book
To: [email protected]

> Great initiative!
> 
> On 2009-05-27 04:50, Mathieu O'Neil wrote:
> > The recent posts about the "social economy" have led me to consider
> > some issues that I have not seen discussed on [ox] or P2PF for that
> > matter. For example, where does the [ox] community stand on 
> the issue
> > of growth? There is a recent push to rebrand capitalism as "green"
> > (see Obama in the US, Sarkozy and Cohn-Bendit in Europe). But this
> > green capitalism - from the Left or Right - is still based on the
> > unlimited accumulation of stuff.
> 
> Growth comes from the making-more-money-from-money logic of 
> capitalism. 
> This type of growth has to be stopped. But any type of growth in 
> ideas, 
> knowledge, shared experience etc. is necessary to fix lots of 
> damages due 
> to the first logic. In the long run. And "growth" in 
> selbstentfaltung is 
> one key to reach it.
> 
> > An alternative to growth is what is
> > known in French as "la decroissance" - a-growth, like you 
> could talk
> > about atheism as the opposite of religion. So ecological 
> issues have
> > to be thought about. The alienation of nature, not just the
> > alienation of people. This would help to connect peer 
> production to a
> > very dynamic sector of radical thought. 
> 
> What sector do you mean?
> 
> > Then there's the question of elitism. Something I mention from time
> > to time in relation to expertise. How to reconcile the fact of being
> > a "big man" in a community because of technical competency 
> with a
> > democratic structure? There is no equality when some people have
> > access to tools and controls which others don't understand. The
> > bigger the technical system, the more technocratic power 
> grows. This
> > is the critique of technology made by Jacques Ellul and others.
> > Something else that needs to be though about. Plus, how do complex
> > technical systems such as hospitals, airports, electricity grids
> > operate in the type of "commonalist" (you know what I mean) society
> > which I see described (for example) by Christian Siefkes? Do 
> we go
> > back to a village structure where specialised tasks are impossible?
> 
> IMHO the structure of living together is not linked to the 
> degree of 
> division of production. But interesting questions.
> 
> > What happens to neurosurgeons? Do they disappear?
> 
> I don't understand, why should any type of surgeon disappear??
> Anyway, I know, these questions are only examples...
> 
> > In general I have been thinking about what [ox] is for. My short
> > answer: [ox] aims to disseminate the idea that peer production 
> is a
> > valid alternative to capitalism. That's why the points above 
> need to
> > be addressed, at some point. 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> > There has been some conflict on the lists about the differing
> > approaches of [ox] and P2PF. Now, I think the theoretical 
> tools of
> > "political economy" or the marxist tradition are highly appropriate
> > for discussing capitalism (I don't necessarily subscribe to this
> > tradition's received conclusions - capitalism will collapse because
> > of its contradictions, certain classes have a revolutionary role,
> > etc.). In any cases references to marxism also raise issues.
> 
> As you could read, they are very different references to Marx' 
> work. Me, 
> I refer to Marx too, and often I am quite astonished of the yet 
> wide 
> spread old readings (in my view, of course) after 20 years of 
> decline of 
> most types of socialism. But that's the way it is.
> 
> Btw: Kevin Kelly used the term "socialism" too -- crazy: 
> http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-
> 06/nep_newsocialism
> > First, there are many variants of marxist thought - for 
> example until
> > I read [extracts from] Johan Joderbergh's "Hacking Capitalism" 
> I had
> > not detected in too many writings on peer production an
> > acknowledgement of the autonomist current of Negri and others.
> > Johan's text makes the crucial point - already made by the
> > Situationnists amongst others - that free software is a 
> reaction to
> > the quality of life in modern society, i.e. to boredom.
> 
> Negri himself has some references to free software.
> 
> > Second, I don't see how markets and exchange will disappear very
> > quickly. There are simply too many interests out there for 
> this to
> > happen. At some point we have to face reality: the only way this
> > could happen is through a violent social revolution, which 
> would seem
> > to contradict the peaceful approach of peer production. So I 
> think it
> > is crucially important for [ox] to maintain its engagement with
> > "fellow travellers" such as Michel Bauwens / P2PF who can bring
> > interesting perspectives to bear.
> 
> I don't see a violent social revolution to be any option. At 
> some points 
> there could be harsh clashs of interests, but from the side of 
> peer 
> production I don't see, that violence is useful. But from the 
> dark side 
> of the empire it could be.
> 
> > Which brings me to current projects in the service of disseminating
> > the idea that peer production is a valid alternative to capitalism.
> >
> > As far as the website goes, I think a consensus is emerging as to
> > what it could be like.
> 
> StefanMn moved the website topic to pox.
> 
> > So, I have also been thinking about the book project. There has
> > apparently been some "behind the scenes" action about this.
> > (...)
> 
> I skip some parts...
> 
> > I have come up with a suggestion for possible
> > chapters, i.e. this is what a book exploring the issue - a
> > marxist-theoretical analysis of peer production as an 
> alternative to
> > capitalism - should have at a minimum. It is of course 
> incomplete, to
> > be used as a base for discussion. 
> 
> Do we need a "marxist-theoretical analysis"? I ask this 
> question, 
> because I think, that there no such thing. There are different 
> approaches 
> using Marx, but not one "marxist-theoretical analysis" -- if you 
> don't 
> wanna take mine, *lol* ;-)
> 
> > Chapter 2: Peer production as a germ form
> >
> > Content: Explanation of free software and peer production, 
> concept of
> > "Selbstentfaltung".
> >
> > Author: Stefan Merten / Oekonux
> 
> Concerning germ form, there is already a text from StefanMn and 
> me: 
> http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/StefanMerten/CapitalAndClass/GermFormTheoryConcept
> 
> A comprehensive text about Selbstentfaltung is missing. I could 
> contribute. This text would evaluate the role of the individual 
> in peer 
> production.
> 
> > Chapter 3: Peer production and the Marxist tradition
> >
> > Content: How does peer production relate to different strands of
> > marxist theory today - German tradition (?), Althusser (?),
> > Callinicos (?), Harvey (?), Negri/Tronti (?), etc.
> >
> > Author: ?? / Oekonux=20
> 
> Given the problem above, maybe we could reduce this to two 
> perspectives: 
> a traditional workers movement perspective and a new reading 
> perspective? Or do you think of having an overview with all the 
> strands 
> mentioned?
> 
> > Chapter 7: A complete social model
> >
> > Content: How could a peer production society work - Siefkes' weighed
> > contributions, d-pool, stigmergic, etc. Other models?
> >
> > Author: Christian Siefkes / Oekonux
> 
> I could contribute some ideas from a more general perspective: 
> What is a 
> society and how does it work? What is a "social model"? How can 
> we 
> determine functions of a society?
> 
> > Chapter 8: Alternative to Oekonux
> >
> > Content: There has been some disagreement with friends in P2P about
> > issues such as the role of money and markets in a non-
> alienated way.
> > Rather than excommunicating those we disagree with we should 
> have a
> > dialogue with them. In fact this chapter could be in the form 
> of a
> > dialogue between the two perspectives. This would make the 
> book more
> > self-critical, more reflexive and help it to breathe a bit.
> 
> Although I find some P2P-ideas counterintuitive and non-ox-like, 
> I 
> strongly support this dialogue.
> 
> Ciao,
> Stefan
> 
> 
> -- 
> Start here: www.meretz.de
> _________________________________
> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
> Contact: [email protected]

****
Dr Mathieu O'Neil
Adjunct Research Fellow
Australian Demographic and Social Research Institute
College of Arts and Social Science
The Australian National University

E-mail: [email protected]
Tel.: (61 02) 61 25 38 00
Web: http://adsri.anu.edu.au/people/visitors/mathieu.php
Mail: Coombs Building, 9
Canberra, ACT 0200 - AUSTRALIA





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