Re: [BoI] Islamic criticism

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 22:34 AM, Rami Rustom wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 5:00 AM, Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>> Concerning harsh/war-like verses (that constitutes 5-6 verse in 6600 verses) I have already explained that Islam is >>"hands-on" concerning restoring/sustaining peace and stopping cruelty/oppression.
>> 
>>> Please show me the verse that explains that, instead of asserting *your* ideas.
>> 
>> I have a feeling that it is hopeless but here you go :
> 
> Why would it be hopeless? You asserted that idea twice without quoting
> the Quran. THAT is hopeless. Now you *are* quoting the Quran. This is
> hopeful. We can get somewhere this way.
> 
> 
>> Quran 4:75 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"
>> 
>> 
>>>> However in whatever you do towards this goal, you HAVE to stay within the universal judiciary framework and be fair, >>transparent and honest to all people (whether they are muslim or not).
>> 
>>> Please show me the verse that explains that, instead of asserting
>>> *your* ideas. (Note that Islam does not apply its morality on to
>>> people whether they are "Muslim or not").
>> 
>> Quran 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
>> 
>> Please do not reply as "what is transgressing" "or how I would know that one's is transgressing"
> 
> Its clear that "transgressor" means one who does stuff other than God
> told him to do.

Saying your ideas are "clear" (clearly right) isn't a good way to discuss.

Also your interpretation is not clear to me. Transgress means:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgress

> 1
> : to violate a command or law : sin
> 2
> : to go beyond a boundary or limit

you're differing from the dictionary without explanation.





>> Quran 5:8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.
> 
> This tells Muslims to be fair. But in other verses it says otherwise.

you asked him for quotes. he gave some. so i think when you say other verses differ from the ones he quoted, you should quote a couple.



>> In western countries, wife-beating, prostitution, drug/alcohol abuse is widespread. Crime rates and suicide are unfortunately well above world average.  According to Islam everyone should collaboratively act against these problems. And I do not think western morality is successful in handling these problems and improving the situation.
> 
> Wrong. See Thomas Szasz, Ayn Rand.

(Having read them a lot more than you,) I'm not sure which of their ideas you mean or what sort of position you're advocating and how that is a reply specifically to what Ismail was saying.


-- Elliot Temple
http://fallibleideas.com/