Re: [BoI] Islamic criticism

On Nov 29, 2012 8:59 PM, "Elliot Temple" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]> wrote:
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> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 22:34 AM, Rami Rustom wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 5:00 AM, Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Concerning harsh/war-like verses (that constitutes 5-6 verse in 6600 verses) I have already explained that Islam is >>"hands-on" concerning restoring/sustaining peace and stopping cruelty/oppression.
> >>
> >>> Please show me the verse that explains that, instead of asserting *your* ideas.
> >>
> >> I have a feeling that it is hopeless but here you go :
> >
> > Why would it be hopeless? You asserted that idea twice without quoting
> > the Quran. THAT is hopeless. Now you *are* quoting the Quran. This is
> > hopeful. We can get somewhere this way.
> >
> >
> >> Quran 4:75 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"
> >>
> >>
> >>>> However in whatever you do towards this goal, you HAVE to stay within the universal judiciary framework and be fair, >>transparent and honest to all people (whether they are muslim or not).
> >>
> >>> Please show me the verse that explains that, instead of asserting
> >>> *your* ideas. (Note that Islam does not apply its morality on to
> >>> people whether they are "Muslim or not").
> >>
> >> Quran 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
> >>
> >> Please do not reply as "what is transgressing" "or how I would know that one's is transgressing"
> >
> > Its clear that "transgressor" means one who does stuff other than God
> > told him to do.
>
> Saying your ideas are "clear" (clearly right) isn't a good way to discuss.

But it was clear to me and to Ismael, and to any English-speaking Muslim.


> Also your interpretation is not clear to me. Transgress means:
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgress
>
> > 1
> > : to violate a command or law : sin
> > 2
> > : to go beyond a boundary or limit
>
> you're differing from the dictionary without explanation.

A "real" Muslim understands that doing what God forbids *is* sin. And
that one who does the forbidden is a transgressor.


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> >> Quran 5:8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.
> >
> > This tells Muslims to be fair. But in other verses it says otherwise.
>
> you asked him for quotes. he gave some. so i think when you say other verses differ from the ones he quoted, you should quote a couple.

I guess I got tired of quoting them since I had already done that many
times in previous posts with Ismael and he ignored them.


>
>
> >> In western countries, wife-beating, prostitution, drug/alcohol abuse is widespread. Crime rates and suicide are unfortunately well above world average.  According to Islam everyone should collaboratively act against these problems. And I do not think western morality is successful in handling these problems and improving the situation.
> >
> > Wrong. See Thomas Szasz, Ayn Rand.
>
> (Having read them a lot more than you,) I'm not sure which of their ideas you mean or what sort of position you're advocating and how that is a reply specifically to what Ismail was saying.

I'm thinking of freedom, individual rights, consent in human
interactions, no coercion, only persuasion. Rand and Szasz championed
these things.

All of the problems Ismael mentioned would improve with more
individual freedom. Less freedom makes them worse.

America was designed around this idea of individual rights. The US
government was designed with protections for individuals, for
individual freedom to do whatever they want short of infringing on
another individuals freedom. More importantly, the government was
designed with limitations on what it was allowed to do, a first in
history.

-- Rami