Re: [TCS] What is empathy

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Elliot Temple <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 5:58 AM, Alan Forrester
> <alanmichaelforrester-gM/[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 13 Dec 2012, at 10:17, Jean Dutertre <jean_dutertre-1tsiiZ//[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Le 13/12/2012 08:59, Elliot Temple a écrit :
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:58 AM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]
> >>> <mailto:rombomb%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]
> >>>> <mailto:rombomb%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>> On Aug 20, 2012 3:07 AM, "a b" <[email protected]
> >>>>> <mailto:asbbih%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]
> >>>>>> <mailto:rombomb%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In these situations, the child might be very quiet about what the
> >>>>>>> problem is. So an approach that works is to guess why he might be
> >>>>>>> sad
> >>>>>>> and form it into a question: "Are you sad about your mom not being
> >>>>>>> here?" If the guess was wrong, he'll tell you "no". If it was
> >>>>>>> right,
> >>>>>>> he'll tell you "yes". And he may open up a lot more and tell you
> >>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>> details. If he does, then use those details to form more accurate
> >>>>>>> guesses. Even if he doesn't say any more details, you can guess
> >>>>>>> again:
> >>>>>>> "Are you sad because you won't be able to play with her anymore?"
> >>>>>>> And
> >>>>>>> continue the cycle. And some point he'll give you a detail that is
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> mistaken idea and you could help him by showing him that its a
> >>>>>>> mistaken idea. He might say, "I don't want to lose you." So at
> >>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>> point you realize that the child is worried that he'll lose his
> >>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>> remaining parent because he has already lost one parent. So here
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> parent can say, "Oh.. well I'm very healthy, I'm probably not
> >>>>>>> going to
> >>>>>>> die until I'm very old, like older than grandpa.. and by then
> >>>>>>> you'll
> >>>>>>> be old like me. Did you know that most people die when they are
> >>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>> old like older than grandpa?"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'd agree this last part would be the right kind of response, but
> >>>>>> what
> >>>>>> are you really doing...correcting a mistaken idea, or recognizing
> >>>>>> an
> >>>>>> emotional need (with your emotions) and providing reassurance? If
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> second, then does it make what is happening between you and the
> >>>>>> child
> >>>>>> more or less clear by using this other vocabularly?
> >>>>
> >>>> So about this empathy idea, I looked it up and there are many many
> >>>> definitions of it. Here's my definition:
> >>>>
> >>>> Empathy: The ability to understand that someone else is (mentally)
> >>>> hurting.
> >>>
> >>> Empathy is actually a concept in the service of conformity. It has to
> >>> do with respecting all emotions considered legitimate by social
> >>> authority, but not others.
> >>>
> >>> If you go find 20 examples of people actually using the concept, you
> >>> may see what I mean. If not, post your counter examples.
> >>>
> >>>> So what do you think of my definition of empathy?
> >>>>
> >>>> Which parts of my explanation do you disagree with?
> >>>
> >>> It's an ivory tower philosopher-intellectual type of definition,
> >>> rather than something connected to reality. It's important to pay some
> >>> attention to the world we live in if one wishes to comment well on it.
> >>
> >> empathy is a matter of mirror neurons (see Giacomo Rizzolatti and/or
> >> Vilayanur Ramachandran)
> >
> > Empathy is behaviour not a bunch of neurons.
> >
> > Mirror neurons are, at best, an explanation of how the knowledge
> > required to act empathetically is instantiated in the brain, and the idea is
> > no good even at doing that.
> >
> > When I look at a behaviour like knitting, say, some neurons go off in my
> > brain. If actually knitted myself, then a set of neurons would also go off
> > in my head. The set of neurons that go off when I knit and the set that go
> > off when I watch somebody knit overlap and the neurons that both sets have
> > in common are called mirror neurons. I have not seen any indication in
> > anything I have read that there is anything more to mirror neurons than
> > that.
> >
> > Specifically, there is no explanation of any respect in which mirror
> > neurons differ from other neurons that explains why they go off in both
> > cases. They don't have different kinds of axons or whatever.
>
> Right. This is why I have asked about mirror neurons at autopsy. And DD
> has not answered, nor has any other mirror neuron believer been able to
> answer the issue.

Does a good explanation have to relate to a currently observable
resoluton? If not...what would be added by the answer to your
question?