Re: Empathy

On Dec 20, 2012 1:23 PM, "a b" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:19 AM, hibbsa <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], Brett Hall <brhalluk@...>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 17/12/2012, at 19:22, "hibbsa" <asbbih@...> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In [email protected], Elliot Temple <curi@>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:15 AM, hibbsa <asbbih@> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Something that might be helpful to a discussion about empathy
> > >> > > > would be
> > >> > > > if particapants disclose whether they personally consistently
> > >> > > > experience
> > >> > > > what they assume must be meant by 'empathy'. Not everyone does.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Stop trying to invade people's privacy.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > -- Elliot Temple
> > >> > > http://fallibleideas.com/
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Voluntary disclosure doesn't involve any kind of invasion that I can
> > >> > see. So the question would be the relevance/importance to the discussion of
> > >> > what is suggested.
> > >> > About that I would say that, if you don't experience the sensation of
> > >> > empathy, and never have...then you about as useful to people that do or have
> > >> > as a blind man is to a discussion about the visual sensation of colour.
> > >> >
> > >> Is this what emotions are like? Is empathy, poorly defined as it is, a
> > >> quale like the perception of some colour?
> > >>
> > >> Brett.
> > >>
> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >>
> > >
> > > From what I can make of it, empathy is linked in with social instinct
> > > (Or call it social static memes if you prefer...in the end once 'static
> > > memes' have been worked through to their consequences I suspect there aren't
> > > going to be that many differences)
> >
> > What does "worked through to their consequences" mean?
>
> For example, if a 'static meme' is similar enough, ubiquitous enough,
> and in the population long enough, and makes itself useful enough,
> then any mutations in the brain that improve the execution of that
> meme would become positively advantageous, thus natural selection
> kicks in. And I think DD does say static memes came first and were
> around a long long time. That's one example.
> >
> >
> > > Not everyone has it. Psychopaths don't get empathy. Autism/Asperger's
> > > have less empathy which may be part of the reason for the tendency to be
> > > socially isolated, unable to grasp social cues and so on.
> >
> > Those concepts are not any good. We have better ideas to explain what
> > you're trying to explain. Those concepts explain that genes have a
> > causal role, but they don't.
>
> It's fine by me for you to regard psychopaths and autistic/asperger's
> in the way that you do. Underlying causality can be put to one side.
> E.g. you may assume every time I say "psychopath" what I mean is
> "people with socially different ideas and behaviour such that they
> would be high on the psychopath checklist"
>
> >
> > When psychologists refer to someone as having a "psychopathy", what's
> > really going on is that that person has evil ideas,
>
> But does a psychopath have evil ideas? Typically they would probably
> agree with Rand, agree with the ideas against altruism, agree with the
> ideas about putting oneself first absolutely without compromise.

They do or they don't? Are you assuming that?

I bet you're assuming that someone whose not willing to sacrifice
one's preferences necessitates sacrificing someone else's preferences,
right? I reject that. Every single interaction between two or more
people can be a win/win situation, such that both people get what they
want -- meaning that no one sacrifices. This is Rand's view. Why do
you think that having this idea is psychopathic?


> So what are these evil ideas you have in mind?

By that I meant wanting to kill someone, or torture them, or rape
them, things like that.


>
> > ideas that he uses
> > to kill and hurt innocent people. And I guess the psychologists assume
> > that having those evil ideas *must* be due to a physical illness, but
> > that's false. Horrible experiences during childhood (plus his
> > understanding about them, i.e. his choices) is sufficient to causing
> > one to have evil ideas.
>
> The reason I am personally convinced there is a genetic component is
> because I have seen scientific evidence in the form brain imaging. If
> you are interested you could look into that.

Please link the article here.

>
> I don't really agree that psychopathy is equivalent to having ideas
> about killing/hurting people.

What is it then?

-- Rami