Re: Empathy

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2012 1:23 PM, "a b" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Rami Rustom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:19 AM, hibbsa <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], Brett Hall <brhalluk@...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> On 17/12/2012, at 19:22, "hibbsa" <asbbih@...> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- In [email protected], Elliot Temple <curi@>
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:15 AM, hibbsa <asbbih@> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Something that might be helpful to a discussion about empathy
> > > >> > > > would be
> > > >> > > > if particapants disclose whether they personally consistently
> > > >> > > > experience
> > > >> > > > what they assume must be meant by 'empathy'. Not everyone
> > > >> > > > does.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Stop trying to invade people's privacy.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > -- Elliot Temple
> > > >> > > http://fallibleideas.com/
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Voluntary disclosure doesn't involve any kind of invasion that I
> > > >> > can
> > > >> > see. So the question would be the relevance/importance to the
> > > >> > discussion of
> > > >> > what is suggested.
> > > >> > About that I would say that, if you don't experience the
> > > >> > sensation of
> > > >> > empathy, and never have...then you about as useful to people that
> > > >> > do or have
> > > >> > as a blind man is to a discussion about the visual sensation of
> > > >> > colour.
> > > >> >
> > > >> Is this what emotions are like? Is empathy, poorly defined as it
> > > >> is, a
> > > >> quale like the perception of some colour?
> > > >>
> > > >> Brett.
> > > >>
> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > From what I can make of it, empathy is linked in with social
> > > > instinct
> > > > (Or call it social static memes if you prefer...in the end once
> > > > 'static
> > > > memes' have been worked through to their consequences I suspect
> > > > there aren't
> > > > going to be that many differences)
> > >
> > > What does "worked through to their consequences" mean?
> >
> > For example, if a 'static meme' is similar enough, ubiquitous enough,
> > and in the population long enough, and makes itself useful enough,
> > then any mutations in the brain that improve the execution of that
> > meme would become positively advantageous, thus natural selection
> > kicks in. And I think DD does say static memes came first and were
> > around a long long time. That's one example.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Not everyone has it. Psychopaths don't get empathy.
> > > > Autism/Asperger's
> > > > have less empathy which may be part of the reason for the tendency
> > > > to be
> > > > socially isolated, unable to grasp social cues and so on.
> > >
> > > Those concepts are not any good. We have better ideas to explain what
> > > you're trying to explain. Those concepts explain that genes have a
> > > causal role, but they don't.
> >
> > It's fine by me for you to regard psychopaths and autistic/asperger's
> > in the way that you do. Underlying causality can be put to one side.
> > E.g. you may assume every time I say "psychopath" what I mean is
> > "people with socially different ideas and behaviour such that they
> > would be high on the psychopath checklist"
> >
> > >
> > > When psychologists refer to someone as having a "psychopathy", what's
> > > really going on is that that person has evil ideas,
> >
> > But does a psychopath have evil ideas? Typically they would probably
> > agree with Rand, agree with the ideas against altruism, agree with the
> > ideas about putting oneself first absolutely without compromise.
>
> They do or they don't? Are you assuming that?
>
> I bet you're assuming that someone whose not willing to sacrifice
> one's preferences necessitates sacrificing someone else's preferences,
> right?

I know about finding common preferences

> I reject that. Every single interaction between two or more
> people can be a win/win situation, such that both people get what they
> want -- meaning that no one sacrifices. This is Rand's view. Why do
> you think that having this idea is psychopathic?

You are assuming a lot of things. What about the possibility
psychopathy is an unfairly maligned condition?

>
> > So what are these evil ideas you have in mind?
>
> By that I meant wanting to kill someone, or torture them, or rape
> them, things like that.

There's nothing about psychopathy that necessarily means wanting to do
that stuff. You have to be drawn to the ideas of [gratuitous] torture,
rape, murder, in the first place. It's unlikely that many psychopaths
are at all interested in doing that sort of thing.

>
>
> >
> > > ideas that he uses
> > > to kill and hurt innocent people. And I guess the psychologists assume
> > > that having those evil ideas *must* be due to a physical illness, but
> > > that's false. Horrible experiences during childhood (plus his
> > > understanding about them, i.e. his choices) is sufficient to causing
> > > one to have evil ideas.
> >
> > The reason I am personally convinced there is a genetic component is
> > because I have seen scientific evidence in the form brain imaging. If
> > you are interested you could look into that.
>
> Please link the article here.

I meant I've physically seen the process/evidence. I could probably
find something for you...but I worded things here carefully so as to
not leave myself with that obligation. You can easily find it
yourself. It typically needs more than one document anyway. When I
look into something I end up with 20 or 30 pages open (follow links,
googling names, etc). So it's really something one has to do for
oneself.
>
>
> >
> > I don't really agree that psychopathy is equivalent to having ideas
> > about killing/hurting people.
>
> What is it then?
>
> -- Rami

Well...there's an evolving understanding. There's a lot of recent
theorizing suggesting that while psychopaths are disproportionately
represented in prison, the same is also true in boardrooms.
Maybe they have recieved an unfairly bad press? Maybe they are more
like heros of good philosophy. Uber -rational beings with special
analytical powers as the result of possessing brains innately
unclutered by empathy, fear, fear of pain, etc.