Re: Multiverse Morality

Gary Oberbrunner <[email protected]> Sat, 31 Aug 2013 15:09:59 -0400
Newsgroups	gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality
Message-ID	<CAFChFyhUDm-z5o_LE1f-JZ=NreQUN_80-hdN5OBY=HFZtQWZyA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 2:12 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa-/[email protected]> wrote:

> SWE is not literally what you say. It describes collapse events.

Nope, the other way around.  Check the refs I sent.

> The only way to fix things so it doesn't is with an infinite
> multiverse.

Not the only way -- but one way.  Check the refs I sent.

One easy way to see that the SWE can't describe collapes is that the
SWE is completely linear.  Collapse is, of course, highly nonlinear.
Thus it cannot described by the SWE.

> walking me through some arbitrary process starting with observed
> strangeness and ending up invoking a multiverse

That's pretty much Chapter 1 of FoR; the observed strangeness is the
particle/wave duality.  You can approach it from other angles as well.

> Then there's the claim MWI is mathematical.
> This is only substantially true if you can show a set of equations,
> maybe SWE itself, that overwhelmingly capture the entire multiverse
> conception, and also how it maps to individual QM events and all
> the rest. In other words, that we can say, going forward we are
> going to talk abiout MWI mathematically, using equations and
> consequences, and we care going to find that this a much more
> powerful way to work with MWI.

The above is a good statement of how it actually does work in
practice. The SWE does in fact capture the entire multiverse as well
as individual objects and interactions.  It's really the only way we
know of to make progress in the very large, very small and very
high-energy frontiers.  Deutsch is a good popularizer, so he puts it
into common words well enough (in FoR anyway), but the core is the
equations and what they tell us.

> Are you making any of the above claims?

Absolutely.

> I don't think so. I think we're stuck with verbal explanations of
> MWI.

If so, it would be empty of content.

> I don't think you would have much luck in any attempt to
> translate MW concepts like fungibility and all the rest, in some
> kind of intermediate structure that allowed full translastion
> between MWI and SWE and the rest of QM.

Don't know that there is any intermediate structure needed.
Fungibility is a fact of life; not only a consequence of the SWE (like
everything in physics) but experimentally observable (e.g. in
Bose-Einstein condensates).  The discovery of the SWE _is_ the
discovery of the underlying principle of all of QM.

> But then do it. Show me.

I would love to -- I have a day job though.  Definitely considering
working on quantum computation once I retire though.  But all the
progress in the last 50 years is pretty exciting to me; I think the
next 50 will be incredible.

-- 
Gary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      <p>On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 2:12 PM, hibbsa &lt;<a href="mailto:hibbsa%40yahoo.com">hibbsa-/[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; SWE is not literally what you say. It describes collapse events.<br>
<br>
Nope, the other way around.  Check the refs I sent.<br>
<br>
&gt; The only way to fix things so it doesn&#39;t is with an infinite<br>
&gt; multiverse.<br>
<br>
Not the only way -- but one way.  Check the refs I sent.<br>
<br>
One easy way to see that the SWE can&#39;t describe collapes is that the<br>
SWE is completely linear.  Collapse is, of course, highly nonlinear.<br>
Thus it cannot described by the SWE.<br>
<br>
&gt; walking me through some arbitrary process starting with observed<br>
&gt; strangeness and ending up invoking a multiverse<br>
<br>
That&#39;s pretty much Chapter 1 of FoR; the observed strangeness is the<br>
particle/wave duality.  You can approach it from other angles as well.<br>
<br>
&gt; Then there&#39;s the claim MWI is mathematical.<br>
&gt; This is only substantially true if you can show a set of equations,<br>
&gt; maybe SWE itself, that overwhelmingly capture the entire multiverse<br>
&gt; conception, and also how it maps to individual QM events and all<br>
&gt; the rest. In other words, that we can say, going forward we are<br>
&gt; going to talk abiout MWI mathematically, using equations and<br>
&gt; consequences, and we care going to find that this a much more<br>
&gt; powerful way to work with MWI.<br>
<br>
The above is a good statement of how it actually does work in<br>
practice. The SWE does in fact capture the entire multiverse as well<br>
as individual objects and interactions.  It&#39;s really the only way we<br>
know of to make progress in the very large, very small and very<br>
high-energy frontiers.  Deutsch is a good popularizer, so he puts it<br>
into common words well enough (in FoR anyway), but the core is the<br>
equations and what they tell us.<br>
<br>
&gt; Are you making any of the above claims?<br>
<br>
Absolutely.<br>
<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think so. I think we&#39;re stuck with verbal explanations of<br>
&gt; MWI.<br>
<br>
If so, it would be empty of content.<br>
<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think you would have much luck in any attempt to<br>
&gt; translate MW concepts like fungibility and all the rest, in some<br>
&gt; kind of intermediate structure that allowed full translastion<br>
&gt; between MWI and SWE and the rest of QM.<br>
<br>
Don&#39;t know that there is any intermediate structure needed.<br>
Fungibility is a fact of life; not only a consequence of the SWE (like<br>
everything in physics) but experimentally observable (e.g. in<br>
Bose-Einstein condensates).  The discovery of the SWE _is_ the<br>
discovery of the underlying principle of all of QM.<br>
<br>
&gt; But then do it. Show me.<br>
<br>
I would love to -- I have a day job though.  Definitely considering<br>
working on quantum computation once I retire though.  But all the<br>
progress in the last 50 years is pretty exciting to me; I think the<br>
next 50 will be incredible.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Gary<br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
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