Re: Multiverse Moralityt
Gary Oberbrunner <[email protected]> Sat, 31 Aug 2013 15:27:15 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAFChFyg2UfxfnDFwMNZnnyK9XSv-FbAZVAN5bwYTX+TrGtGC6g@mail.gmail.com> |
--WwihWvC3IHNg5Jd255TuRSkjvanV4bWrM0Zmv9p Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 1:02 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa-/[email protected]> wrote: > ** > > > > Gary - I know MWI People are adamant that whatever belongs to QM belongs > to them also. But I don't personally agree with that. Theories earn their > rigour, and QM earned it, while MWI never has. > Fair point. The Transactional interpretation and others are still in play. But I don't think anyone takes Copenhagen as a serious description of reality anymore. > The SWE doesn't require the MWI, and the addition of MWI adds no new value > to the equation. The equation doesn't do something that it didn't do > before. > You're right, there are several other possible interpretations of the SWE. Some of the refs I've sent discuss them. I've said before, you can deny causality, or FTL communication, or a single-outcome universe. Take your pick. You just can't have all of them, due to QM and Bell. But just to be clear, MWI is not an "addition" to the SWE. It just says it literally describes reality. The SWE by itself is just an equation for predicting the future from the present. It takes no position on reality of its terms. Collapse, on the other hand, _is_ an addition to the SWE. > Certainly MWI can define itself as SWE, just as an object flying around > Venus might reasonably define itself in terms of Newton's gravitational > equations. > > But QM came out of a hard scientific progression. MWI is one of the > interpretations. QM is a set of equations. It's probably the most highly > respected work in science of all time. MWI isn't even on the same planet as > tht sort of accomplishment. > No, it's arguably a consequence or followup to it, similarly to how genetics was a followup or consequence of clever people thinking hard enough about evolution. Definitely not on the same level, but pretty amazing nonetheless. Copernicus, for instance, discovering that the sun doesn't orbit the earth, opened up quite a lot of new frontiers despite not having a complete theory. Galileo and others stood on his shoulders. I see MWI similarly. > I honestly find it appalling how MWI people try to beef MWI by telling > folk its mathematical and so on. It's really misleureading. Young people > are going to be left with and enduring impression of MWI thst isn't true. > MWI needs to earn its stripes. If you want MWI to be a set of equations, > work for it. Earn it :o) > I'd like to. Need more time. Lots of progress is being made in quantum computation, quantum cryptography, extending superposition into macro realms, and so on -- but more is needed of course. But that said, I do think you misunderstand MWI from a scientific standpoint. It's not as radical as you think. It's just a way to understand the results of the SWE that makes more sense, is much more intuitive, and allows us to make more rapid progress. Deutsch makes it into some kind of philosophical revolution, because that sells books I guess, but to me it's squarely in the tradition of Copernicus, Newton, Galileo, and Einstein. Sure, it posits that the universe is a lot bigger than we thought. But so what? We keep discovering that. Always have, always will. -- Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --WwihWvC3IHNg5Jd255TuRSkjvanV4bWrM0Zmv9p Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 1:02 PM, hibbsa <<a href="mailto:hibbsa%40yahoo.com">hibbsa-/[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > **<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > Gary - I know MWI People are adamant that whatever belongs to QM belongs<br> > to them also. But I don't personally agree with that. Theories earn their<br> > rigour, and QM earned it, while MWI never has.<br> ><br> Fair point. The Transactional interpretation and others are still in play.<br> But I don't think anyone takes Copenhagen as a serious description of<br> reality anymore.<br> <br> > The SWE doesn't require the MWI, and the addition of MWI adds no new value<br> > to the equation. The equation doesn't do something that it didn't do<br> > before.<br> ><br> You're right, there are several other possible interpretations of the SWE.<br> Some of the refs I've sent discuss them. I've said before, you can deny<br> causality, or FTL communication, or a single-outcome universe. Take your<br> pick. You just can't have all of them, due to QM and Bell.<br> <br> But just to be clear, MWI is not an "addition" to the SWE. It just says it<br> literally describes reality. The SWE by itself is just an equation for<br> predicting the future from the present. It takes no position on reality of<br> its terms. Collapse, on the other hand, _is_ an addition to the SWE.<br> <br> > Certainly MWI can define itself as SWE, just as an object flying around<br> > Venus might reasonably define itself in terms of Newton's gravitational<br> > equations.<br> ><br> > But QM came out of a hard scientific progression. MWI is one of the<br> > interpretations. QM is a set of equations. It's probably the most highly<br> > respected work in science of all time. MWI isn't even on the same planet as<br> > tht sort of accomplishment.<br> ><br> No, it's arguably a consequence or followup to it, similarly to how<br> genetics was a followup or consequence of clever people thinking hard<br> enough about evolution. Definitely not on the same level, but pretty<br> amazing nonetheless. Copernicus, for instance, discovering that the sun<br> doesn't orbit the earth, opened up quite a lot of new frontiers despite not<br> having a complete theory. Galileo and others stood on his shoulders. I see<br> MWI similarly.<br> <br> > I honestly find it appalling how MWI people try to beef MWI by telling<br> > folk its mathematical and so on. It's really misleureading. Young people<br> > are going to be left with and enduring impression of MWI thst isn't true.<br> > MWI needs to earn its stripes. If you want MWI to be a set of equations,<br> > work for it. Earn it :o)<br> ><br> I'd like to. Need more time. Lots of progress is being made in quantum<br> computation, quantum cryptography, extending superposition into macro<br> realms, and so on -- but more is needed of course.<br> <br> But that said, I do think you misunderstand MWI from a scientific<br> standpoint. It's not as radical as you think. It's just a way to<br> understand the results of the SWE that makes more sense, is much more<br> intuitive, and allows us to make more rapid progress. Deutsch makes it<br> into some kind of philosophical revolution, because that sells books I<br> guess, but to me it's squarely in the tradition of Copernicus, Newton,<br> Galileo, and Einstein. Sure, it posits that the universe is a lot bigger<br> than we thought. But so what? We keep discovering that. Always have,<br> always will.<br> <br> -- <br> Gary<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <table cellspacing=4px style="margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA " > <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbjY4aTRoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NTkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM3Nzk3NzgyMA--?act=reply&messageNum=25590">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Multiverse%20Moralityt" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; "> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Multiverse%20Moralityt" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlODRxNzVrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3Nzk3NzgyMA--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #2D50FD; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/message/25476;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MjFycW5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NTkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3Nzk3NzgyMAR0cGNJZAMyNTQ3Ng--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (32) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZXE4c2gwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNzc5Nzc4MjA-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">1</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality;_ylc=X3oDMTJldG42Zjg5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM3Nzk3NzgyMA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYXZpcHFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzc3OTc3ODIw" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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