Re: Multiverse Morality
Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> Sun, 1 Sep 2013 16:49:11 +0100 (BST)
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
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| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--a9vMiUlhQ5C-mT9cHdA0veUPz8gARuBMDUxyKsK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >On Sun, Aug 26, 2013 at 7:41 AM=C2=A0<dsallach-/[email protected]>=C2=A0wrote: >>In [email protected], Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay@...> wrote: >>>On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 0:44 PM,=C3=82=C2=A0Gary Oberbrunner wrote: > > >> >Just to be clear, this point of view above is not specific to the MWI. It >>>applies to any deterministic non-dualistic physics, such as a Newtonian >>>block universe (no splitting, but no "real choice" either), or the >>>Copenhagen interpretation of QM. You would need some kind of non-physical >>>mind or soul in order to have it not be according to objective equations. >>>Which of course raises all the standard mind/body dualism questions, which >>> I won't repeat here. >> >>There could be subjectivity without dualistic physics. Personally I think dualistic physics or any conception of non-physical existence does not make sense and is not supported by=A0 >>(actually goes against) modern scientific evidence. >> Having said=A0that how could we be sure that the whole physics is solely explained and governed by deterministic and objective equations? Maybe there is a subjective aspect of >>monistic physical reality that eludes us because we can not access to it or our current scientific knowledge is not enough for any access to thus aspect. Maybe this is the reason why we >>are in great trouble in understanding, analyzing or modeling the subjective nature of consciousness or the qualia phenomenon. >> By subjective aspect of physical reality, I am referring to some concept along the lines of panpsychism. > >Hmm, I'm not sure that panpsychism is necessary for subjectivity. I can not see other explanation. My experience, logic and intuition tells me that genuine subjectivity (the "self") could not arise from objective and mechanistic processes. There should be something deep inside the fabric of existence supporting or enabling subjective perspective. I am not saying panpsychism is the ultimate answer neither I do fully subscribe to its worldview. But at least this philosophy makes justice to the depth of the philosophical problem we are facing. Panpsychic world view has its own problems of how objective equations and processes emerge. (just as there are problems in explaining subjectivity in objectivist/mechanistic mindset). I think concerning these issues we are in somehow backwards stages. The discussion is reminiscient of "whether light is a wave or a particle" back in 20th century. Now we know that it is neither of these two or it is both. >But I'm interested in multiple levels of emergence, and how the different levels do interface with each other. DD's analysis in The Beginning of Infinity, clearly indicates that higher levels >of emergence are coarse-grained relative to more detailed levels of explanation, and the latter do not exercise deterministic control the former (although they may define feasible and >infeasible regions). The lack of determinate causation among explanatory levels might provide a space in which subjectivity can arise. Lack of causation does not bring subjectivity. This is a direct and very tangible lesson we have learned from intelligence emerging in digital systems. There is probably lack of causation even in your digital watch but this does not make the digital watch "subjective" Ismail Atalay --a9vMiUlhQ5C-mT9cHdA0veUPz8gARuBMDUxyKsK Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p>>On Sun, Aug 26, 2013 at 7:41 AM=C2=A0<<a href=3D"mailto:dsa= llach%40yahoo.com">dsallach-/[email protected]</a>>=C2=A0wrote:<br> >>In <a href=3D"mailto:Fabric-of-Reality%40yahoogroups.com">Fabric-of= [email protected]</a>, Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay@...> wrote:<b= r> <br> >>>On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 0:44 PM,=C3=82=C2=A0Gary Oberbrunner wr= ote:<br> > <br> > <br> >> >Just to be clear, this point of view above is not specific to = the MWI. It<br> >>>applies to any deterministic non-dualistic physics, such as a N= ewtonian<br> >>>block universe (no splitting, but no "real choice" ei= ther), or the<br> >>>Copenhagen interpretation of QM. You would need some kind of n= on-physical<br> >>>mind or soul in order to have it not be according to objective = equations.<br> >>>Which of course raises all the standard mind/body dualism quest= ions, which<br> >>> I won't repeat here.<br> >><br> >>There could be subjectivity without dualistic physics. Personally I= think dualistic physics or any conception of non-physical existence does n= ot make sense and is not supported by=A0 <br> >>(actually goes against) modern scientific evidence.<br> >> Having said=A0that how could we be sure that the whole physics is = solely explained and governed by deterministic and objective equations? May= be there is a subjective aspect of <br> >>monistic physical reality that eludes us because we can not access = to it or our current scientific knowledge is not enough for any access to t= hus aspect. Maybe this is the reason why we <br> >>are in great trouble in understanding, analyzing or modeling the su= bjective nature of consciousness or the qualia phenomenon.<br> >> By subjective aspect of physical reality, I am referring to some c= oncept along the lines of panpsychism.<br> ><br> >Hmm, I'm not sure that panpsychism is necessary for subjectivity.<b= r> <br> I can not see other explanation. My experience, logic and intuition tells m= e that genuine subjectivity (the "self") could not arise from obj= ective and mechanistic processes. There should be something deep inside the= fabric of existence supporting or enabling subjective perspective. I am no= t saying panpsychism is the ultimate answer neither I do fully subscribe to= its worldview. But at least this philosophy makes justice to the depth of = the philosophical problem we are facing. <br> <br> Panpsychic world view has its own problems of how objective equations and p= rocesses emerge. (just as there are problems in explaining subjectivity in = objectivist/mechanistic mindset). I think concerning these issues we are in= somehow backwards stages. The discussion is reminiscient of "whether = light is a wave or a particle" back in 20th century. Now we know that = it is neither of these two or it is both.<br> <br> >But I'm interested in multiple levels of emergence, and how the dif= ferent levels do interface with each other. DD's analysis in The Begin= ning of Infinity, clearly indicates that higher levels <br> >of emergence are coarse-grained relative to more detailed levels of exp= lanation, and the latter do not exercise deterministic control the former (= although they may define feasible and <br> >infeasible regions). The lack of determinate causation among explanato= ry levels might provide a space in which subjectivity can arise.<br> <br> Lack of causation does not bring subjectivity. This is a direct and very ta= ngible lesson we have learned from intelligence emerging in digital systems= . There is probably lack of causation even in your digital watch but this d= oes not make the digital watch "subjective"<br> <br> Ismail Atalay<br> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20=20 <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px= ;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1= px solid #EAEAEA " > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/post;_ylc=3DX3oDM= TJxaTA2dG5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1z= Z0lkAzI1NTk0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODA1MTg2Nw--?act=3Dreply&me= ssageNum=3D25594">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; "= > <a href=3D"mailto:i_c_atalay-/[email protected]?subject=3DRe%3A%20Mult= iverse%20Morality" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a>=20 </td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; "= > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DR= e%3A%20Multiverse%20Morality" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50F= D"> Reply to group </a>=20 </td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; "= > <a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/post= ;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlY21mOGozBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA= 1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODA1MTg2Nw--" style=3D"text-de= coration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a> </td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px; color: #2D50FD; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA= ; " > <a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric= -of-Reality/message/25476;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2NG1zazdmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAz= E4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NTk0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc= 3RpbWUDMTM3ODA1MTg2NwR0cGNJZAMyNTQ3Ng--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; co= lor: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (34) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Ver= dana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-tran= sform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inl= ine;"> <li style=3D"border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; di= splay: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class=3D"cat"><a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-o= f-Reality/members;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJmbmZ2bTdrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNzgwNTE4Njc-?= o=3D6" style=3D"text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class=3D"ct" style=3D"color: #ff7900;">1</span> </li> </ul> =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality;_ylc=3DX3oDM= TJlN3VtczBmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNl= YwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODA1MTg2Nw--" style=3D"text-decoration: non= e;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> =20=20 <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkbzNta3NuBF9TAzk3MzU5Nz= E0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZ= QMxMzc4MDUxODY3" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/a/i/u= s/yg/logo/us.gif" height=3D"15" width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! 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