Re: Examples of Major Disjoints between PopperDeutsch and Science
Gary Oberbrunner <[email protected]> Mon, 2 Sep 2013 14:10:08 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
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| Message-ID | <CAFChFyg0gZ0Go1Y3nTdw1kT0-zFewhY8zV1U_Lxn_964WLLvnA@mail.gmail.com> |
--UQz10tvpHdw6yiaJXDrAaF6cReHMoKWTp-DxWOz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Brett Hall <[email protected]> wrote: > > Evolution is all about math. Number of offspring, mutation rates, survival > > rates, etc. Without math it would be empty theorizing. > > Empty? I do not understand this. Why does mathematics give it non-zero > content. Evolution by > natural selection can be appreciated - and deeply - without any need to > model it using partial differential > equations or whatever else one might choose to use. The mechanism of > mutation and selection for > and against, given certain environments, are augmented by an understanding > of mathematics. But they are > not essential for it. By empty I mean that math is how we test it. Everything from Mendel through modern A-life experiments (software, but still mathematical). It can be _appreciated_ in words, sure, but to my mind the proof is in the math. I take your point, though; really both are vital. The math without the text would be just as empty. > > You might be > > confusing how it was discovered with how it's used. I think this one's on > > hibbsa's side. (I used to do some a-life stuff, so I know something about > > it.) Plate tectonics is a meta-theory of physics (it's geography), but > > without rates of motion, measurement and geometry (this bulge fits into > > that hole) it would not have happened. Nutrition, maybe. I'm less > > experienced in that so you could be right. > > > Geography is not a science? > I guess I'm being controversial, but I see most geography as categorization, like history. Such-and-such battle occurred on such-and-such date. So-and-so begat him and her. This river is the longest, that mountain is highest, this coastline is longest, and so on. These are matters of fact on the ground, but there's no theory behind them. So in my mind, they're not really sciences. Now when you start moving from geography to geology, and talk about rock formation, lava flows, and so on, then (again in my probably controversial ontology) you're moving toward science. But again you're right that plate tectonics is more properly geology than "just" geography. -- Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --UQz10tvpHdw6yiaJXDrAaF6cReHMoKWTp-DxWOz Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Brett Hall <<a href="mailto:brhalluk%40hotmail.com">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > > Evolution is all about math. Number of offspring, mutation rates, survival<br> > > rates, etc. Without math it would be empty theorizing.<br> ><br> > Empty? I do not understand this. Why does mathematics give it non-zero<br> > content. Evolution by<br> > natural selection can be appreciated - and deeply - without any need to<br> > model it using partial differential<br> > equations or whatever else one might choose to use. The mechanism of<br> > mutation and selection for<br> > and against, given certain environments, are augmented by an understanding<br> > of mathematics. But they are<br> > not essential for it.<br> <br> By empty I mean that math is how we test it. Everything from Mendel<br> through modern A-life experiments (software, but still mathematical). It<br> can be _appreciated_ in words, sure, but to my mind the proof is in the<br> math. I take your point, though; really both are vital. The math without<br> the text would be just as empty.<br> <br> > > You might be<br> > > confusing how it was discovered with how it's used. I think this one's on<br> > > hibbsa's side. (I used to do some a-life stuff, so I know something about<br> > > it.) Plate tectonics is a meta-theory of physics (it's geography), but<br> > > without rates of motion, measurement and geometry (this bulge fits into<br> > > that hole) it would not have happened. Nutrition, maybe. I'm less<br> > > experienced in that so you could be right.<br> > ><br> > Geography is not a science?<br> ><br> <br> I guess I'm being controversial, but I see most geography as<br> categorization, like history. Such-and-such battle occurred on<br> such-and-such date. So-and-so begat him and her. This river is the<br> longest, that mountain is highest, this coastline is longest, and so on.<br> These are matters of fact on the ground, but there's no theory behind<br> them. So in my mind, they're not really sciences. Now when you start<br> moving from geography to geology, and talk about rock formation, lava<br> flows, and so on, then (again in my probably controversial ontology) you're<br> moving toward science. But again you're right that plate tectonics is more<br> properly geology than "just" geography.<br> <br> -- <br> Gary<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <table cellspacing=4px style="margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA " > <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMzkwcWlsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NTk5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODE1MDA3NQ--?act=reply&messageNum=25599">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Examples%20of%20Major%20Disjoints%20between%20PopperDeutsch%20and%20Science" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; "> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Examples%20of%20Major%20Disjoints%20between%20PopperDeutsch%20and%20Science" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZ3R0dGFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODE1MDA3NQ--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #2D50FD; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/message/25573;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Zmw2bGtrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NTk5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODE1MDA3NQR0cGNJZAMyNTU3Mw--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (12) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdm9zdDQ3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNzgxNTAwNzU-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">1</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fabric-of-Reality;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNDl0Y3I5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM3ODE1MDA3NQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZ21pNmdiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzc4MTUwMDc1" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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