Models and the human ability to abstract
"Lee Corbin" <[email protected]> Thu, 20 Feb 2014 18:15:06 -0800
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jgruner writes
> The purpose of the computational ability of the brain (and in fact of the
> entire organization of living entities) is survival. So it is worth
> keeping in mind that should you augment our brain’s computational ability
> a thousand fold to better model the world, it might in fact impair in some
> ways our ability to survive - we might not be able to see the forest for
> the trees. “A Beautiful Mind” comes to mind. More is not always better.
<
These and the rest of your remarks seem very much on target to me.
> But what do we mean by the term “model”?
At this point, we are encountering the common problem of over-reliance on
one term. The last thing that will help is to try to define it,
incidentally. (Whenever someone does that, not only does everyone else go on
using the term in the very same way that they always have, but even the
definer himself falls into whatever usage has become common with him.)
Though I don't disagree with any of the characteristics you adduce, perhaps
we can avoid the term overly much? If--and sometimes it does happen--a term
becomes "indispensible", then it's a sure sign that something is very wrong.
An inability to say what we mean using alternate language implies that we
don't understand very well what we're talking about.
> Any physical model of a system that is less than the exact size and
> composition of the original (e.g. a model plane in a wind tunnel) must be
> less accurate in terms of predictability of the response of the model.
> Theoretically, a computer could model a system down to some level of
> detail, such as atomic. That might require less space and mass than the
> original model.... <
Quite right.
> Our conception of a coffee cup is a mental hologram of many images of
> various cups, stored not as 2-D or 3-D information, but as an
> N-dimensional matrix of synaptic connections and weighting factors. <
I'm trying to go with the flow of that; but I'm a little reluctant to
endorse the idea of the brain using anything that actually resembles an
N-dimensional matrix. All there is, it seems to me, is just as you say: a
mass of "synaptic connections and weighting factors", but the brain
researchers so far as I know have only very complicated and incomplete ideas
about how the mapping from even a simple object, such as a coffee cup, is
done, to say nothing about how *democracy* or *Stalinism* might be
represented.
> Thus our brains can understand a great deal of the universe (specifically,
> we can predict what will happen…) even though we can’t visualize it
> (Descartes’ point).
<
Yes, and that's true for anything, I would think, in which human intuition
plays a strong part. Sometimes in a conversation, you just get the "feeling"
that someone is, say, anxious, or is disagreeing with you (the moron), and
we don't visualize that in any way. So perhaps there is no need to single
out hypercubes here--or is there? Perhaps I miss your meaning.
> Long ago evolution “decided” our brains were better off specializing in
> symbolic rather than explicit modeling of the world.
<
Shouldn't we rather say that our ancestors were better off (in the viable
reproductive arena) *adding* the capability of symbolic modeling. Or, well,
taking your point another way, shouldn't we also say that even very early
and ordinary animals didn't "model" with any precision the world around
them, but rather, as you explained, form higher level impressions?
> Computers are “augmentations” of our brains, whether inside or outside our
> skulls, as long as we can communicate with them. So if we build a
> computer model that correctly predicts the consequences of the collision
> of two galaxies to some degree of precision, I would agree that we can say
> we “understand” that system even if we can’t “conceptualize” it
> explicitly.
<
I agree. We ought to say that we have a certain sort of understanding in
this case.
> So if we find something in the universe we can’t model, we will have hit
> the barrier. Of course, we can’t even model the weather very well. Does
> that mean we don’t understand it? Perhaps. But we can survive it (well,
> most of the time…).
<
It's probably fair, to try to answer your question, to say that we don’t
understand the weather, or at least we don't understand it very well. And
once our processors or our weather models reach a certain degree of
reliability, then we understand "better"; but still, the human beings in
some kind of native brain mode, don't really understand what the product of
(7^9 + 2^16 - 7917270072)^26 is, at least not in the way that we understand
that 3x4 = 12. For the former, we understand "in principle" but not in
detail the answer provided to us by computers, and perhaps not available to
Kepler--well, he could be pretty tenacious, so I guess I should say
Cicero--at all.
Lee
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<p>jgruner writes<br>
<br>
> The purpose of the computational ability of the brain (and in fact of =
the <br>
> entire organization of living entities) is survival. So it is worth <=
br>
> keeping in mind that should you augment our brain=E2=80=99s computatio=
nal ability <br>
> a thousand fold to better model the world, it might in fact impair in =
some <br>
> ways our ability to survive - we might not be able to see the forest f=
or <br>
> the trees. =E2=80=9CA Beautiful Mind=E2=80=9D comes to mind. More is=
not always better.<br>
<<br>
<br>
These and the rest of your remarks seem very much on target to me.<br>
<br>
> But what do we mean by the term =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D?<br>
<br>
At this point, we are encountering the common problem of over-reliance on <=
br>
one term. The last thing that will help is to try to define it, <br>
incidentally. (Whenever someone does that, not only does everyone else go o=
n <br>
using the term in the very same way that they always have, but even the <br=
>
definer himself falls into whatever usage has become common with him.)<br>
<br>
Though I don't disagree with any of the characteristics you adduce, per=
haps <br>
we can avoid the term overly much? If--and sometimes it does happen--a ter=
m <br>
becomes "indispensible", then it's a sure sign that something=
is very wrong. <br>
An inability to say what we mean using alternate language implies that we <=
br>
don't understand very well what we're talking about.<br>
<br>
> Any physical model of a system that is less than the exact size and <=
br>
> composition of the original (e.g. a model plane in a wind tunnel) must=
be <br>
> less accurate in terms of predictability of the response of the model.=
<br>
> Theoretically, a computer could model a system down to some level of <=
br>
> detail, such as atomic. That might require less space and mass than t=
he <br>
> original model.... <<br>
<br>
Quite right.<br>
<br>
> Our conception of a coffee cup is a mental hologram of many images of =
<br>
> various cups, stored not as 2-D or 3-D information, but as an <br>
> N-dimensional matrix of synaptic connections and weighting factors. &l=
t;<br>
<br>
I'm trying to go with the flow of that; but I'm a little reluctant =
to <br>
endorse the idea of the brain using anything that actually resembles an <br=
>
N-dimensional matrix. All there is, it seems to me, is just as you say: a =
<br>
mass of "synaptic connections and weighting factors", but the bra=
in <br>
researchers so far as I know have only very complicated and incomplete idea=
s <br>
about how the mapping from even a simple object, such as a coffee cup, is <=
br>
done, to say nothing about how *democracy* or *Stalinism* might be <br>
represented.<br>
<br>
> Thus our brains can understand a great deal of the universe (specifica=
lly, <br>
> we can predict what will happen=E2=80=A6) even though we can=E2=80=99t=
visualize it <br>
> (Descartes=E2=80=99 point).<br>
<<br>
<br>
Yes, and that's true for anything, I would think, in which human intuit=
ion <br>
plays a strong part. Sometimes in a conversation, you just get the "fe=
eling" <br>
that someone is, say, anxious, or is disagreeing with you (the moron), and =
<br>
we don't visualize that in any way. So perhaps there is no need to sing=
le <br>
out hypercubes here--or is there? Perhaps I miss your meaning.<br>
<br>
> Long ago evolution =E2=80=9Cdecided=E2=80=9D our brains were better of=
f specializing in <br>
> symbolic rather than explicit modeling of the world.<br>
<<br>
<br>
Shouldn't we rather say that our ancestors were better off (in the viab=
le <br>
reproductive arena) *adding* the capability of symbolic modeling. Or, well=
, <br>
taking your point another way, shouldn't we also say that even very ear=
ly <br>
and ordinary animals didn't "model" with any precision the wo=
rld around <br>
them, but rather, as you explained, form higher level impressions?<br>
<br>
> Computers are =E2=80=9Caugmentations=E2=80=9D of our brains, whether i=
nside or outside our <br>
> skulls, as long as we can communicate with them. So if we build a <br=
>
> computer model that correctly predicts the consequences of the collisi=
on <br>
> of two galaxies to some degree of precision, I would agree that we can=
say <br>
> we =E2=80=9Cunderstand=E2=80=9D that system even if we can=E2=80=99t =
=E2=80=9Cconceptualize=E2=80=9D it <br>
> explicitly.<br>
<<br>
<br>
I agree. We ought to say that we have a certain sort of understanding in <b=
r>
this case.<br>
<br>
> So if we find something in the universe we can=E2=80=99t model, we wil=
l have hit <br>
> the barrier. Of course, we can=E2=80=99t even model the weather very =
well. Does <br>
> that mean we don=E2=80=99t understand it? Perhaps. But we can survive=
it (well, <br>
> most of the time=E2=80=A6).<br>
<<br>
<br>
It's probably fair, to try to answer your question, to say that we don=
=E2=80=99t <br>
understand the weather, or at least we don't understand it very well. =
And <br>
once our processors or our weather models reach a certain degree of <br>
reliability, then we understand "better"; but still, the human b=
eings in <br>
some kind of native brain mode, don't really understand what the produc=
t of <br>
(7^9 + 2^16 - 7917270072)^26 is, at least not in the way that we understan=
d <br>
that 3x4 =3D 12. For the former, we understand "in principle" bu=
t not in <br>
detail the answer provided to us by computers, and perhaps not available to=
<br>
Kepler--well, he could be pretty tenacious, so I guess I should say <br>
Cicero--at all.<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
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