Re: The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) paper of 2007
"Alan Forrester alanmichaelforrester-gM/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Thu, 15 May 2014 12:38:57 +0100
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--eSuskxvGRl6yFQJNPnw2JdfR2cfK4o09d4Mu2L0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 May 2014 05:42, 'Lee Corbin' [email protected] [Fabric-of-Realit= y] <[email protected]> wrote: > Where is any criticism of T= egmark's 2007 paper >> http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646 >> http://www.scribd.= com/doc/110689710/Max-Tegmark-the-Mathematical-Universe > (which has been e= xpanded into a book "Our Mathematical Universe")? Where? > > My own major = criticism so far, as I work my way though the technical parts, > is that in= all likelihood Tegmark would not concede that our concepts carve > nature = at its joints. > > The competing claim (I contend and endorse) that, after = all, our human > concepts for the most part *do* carve nature at its joint= s amounts to > embracing a well-known type of realism. When we say "joints"= we are > referring here to actual aspects of nature that would be noticed = by any > successfully evolutionarily derived intelligent species. For examp= le, > everywhere within our Hubble volume, sufficiently advanced intelligen= t > species, if they exist, will discover the periodic table and its elemen= ts. > We take it to be false, therefore, that the particular data to be fou= nd in > the periodic table are mere human "baggage", as Tegmark would have = it. The first paragraph of Section II B reads: > To give a few examples, = Figure 1 illustrates how various theories can be crudely organized in a fam= ily tree where each might, at least in principle, be derivable from more fu= ndamental ones above it. All these theories have two components: mathematic= al equations and =E2=80=9Cbaggage=E2=80=9D, words that explain how they are= connected to what we humans observe and intuitively understand. Quantum me= chanics as usually presented in textbooks has both components: some equatio= ns as well as three fundamental postulates written out in plain English. At= each level in the hierarchy of theories, new concepts (e.g., protons, atom= s, cells, organisms, cultures) are introduced because they are convenient, = capturing the essence of what is going on without recourse to the more fund= amental theory above it. It is important to remember, however, that it is w= e humans who introduce these concepts and the words for them: in principle,= everything could have been derived from the fundamental theory at the top = of the tree, although such an extreme reductionist approach appears useless= in practice. Crudely speaking, the ratio of equations to baggage decreases= as we move down the tree, dropping near zero for highly applied fields suc= h as medicine and sociology. In contrast, theories near the top are highly = mathematical, and physicists are still struggling to articulate the concept= s, if any, in terms of which we can understand them. The MUH implies that t= he TOE indicated by the question mark at the top is purely mathematical, wi= th no baggage whatsoever. This is refuted by the arguments against reducti= onism in FoR. You can't derive "higher level" stuff from lower level stuff.= For example, epistemology tells us that knowledge can only arise by evolut= ionary processes and this places some constraints on what motion a physical= system can undergo over and above those in the low level laws of motion li= ke the Heisenberg equation of motion. See also http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.7= 439 especially Section 2.11. Alan --eSuskxvGRl6yFQJNPnw2JdfR2cfK4o09d4Mu2L0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p>On 14 May 2014 05:42, 'Lee Corbin' [email protected]<= br> [Fabric-of-Reality] <[email protected]> wrote:<br> > Where is any criticism of Tegmark's 2007 paper<br> >> http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646<br> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/110689710/Max-Tegmark-the-Mathematical-U= niverse<br> > (which has been expanded into a book "Our Mathematical Universe&q= uot;)? Where?<br> ><br> > My own major criticism so far, as I work my way though the technical p= arts,<br> > is that in all likelihood Tegmark would not concede that our concepts = carve<br> > nature at its joints.<br> ><br> > The competing claim (I contend and endorse) that, after all, our human= <br> > concepts for the most part *do* carve nature at its joints amounts to= <br> > embracing a well-known type of realism. When we say "joints"= we are<br> > referring here to actual aspects of nature that would be noticed by an= y<br> > successfully evolutionarily derived intelligent species. For example,<= br> > everywhere within our Hubble volume, sufficiently advanced intelligent= <br> > species, if they exist, will discover the periodic table and its eleme= nts.<br> > We take it to be false, therefore, that the particular data to be foun= d in<br> > the periodic table are mere human "baggage", as Tegmark woul= d have it.<br> <br> The first paragraph of Section II B reads:<br> <br> > To give a few examples, Figure 1 illustrates how various theories can = be crudely organized in a family tree where each might, at least in princip= le, be derivable from more fundamental ones above it. All these theories ha= ve two components: mathematical equations and =E2=80=9Cbaggage=E2=80=9D, wo= rds that explain how they are connected to what we humans observe and intui= tively understand. Quantum mechanics as usually presented in textbooks has = both components: some equations as well as three fundamental postulates wri= tten out in plain English. At each level in the hierarchy of theories, new = concepts (e.g., protons, atoms, cells, organisms, cultures) are introduced = because they are convenient, capturing the essence of what is going on with= out recourse to the more fundamental theory above it. It is important to re= member, however, that it is we humans who introduce these concepts and the = words for them: in principle, everything could have been derived from the f= undamental theory at the top of the tree, although such an extreme reductio= nist approach appears useless in practice. Crudely speaking, the ratio of e= quations to baggage decreases as we move down the tree, dropping near zero = for highly applied fields such as medicine and sociology. In contrast, theo= ries near the top are highly mathematical, and physicists are still struggl= ing to articulate the concepts, if any, in terms of which we can understand= them. The MUH implies that the TOE indicated by the question mark at the t= op is purely mathematical, with no baggage whatsoever.<br> <br> This is refuted by the arguments against reductionism in FoR. You<br> can't derive "higher level" stuff from lower level stuff. For= example,<br> epistemology tells us that knowledge can only arise by evolutionary<br> processes and this places some constraints on what motion a physical<br> <br> system can undergo over and above those in the low level laws of<br> motion like the Heisenberg equation of motion. See also<br> <br> http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.7439<br> <br> especially Section 2.11.<br> <br> Alan<br> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25652;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxdjM2MmtwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQwMDE3NzQ0NA--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25652">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"mailto:alanmichaelforrester-gM/[email protected]?subject= =3DRe%3A%20The%20Mathematical%20Universe%20Hypothesis%20%28MUH%29%20paper%2= 0of%202007" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DR= e%3A%20The%20Mathematical%20Universe%20Hypothesis%20%28MUH%29%20paper%20of%= 202007" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Realit= y/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlNWVhcjA4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE= 4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQwMDE3Nz= Q0NA--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</= a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25651;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2b3JyZmVsBF9TAzk= 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjUyBHNlYw= NmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQwMDE3NzQ0NAR0cGNJZAMyNTY1MQ--" style=3D"text-d= ecoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (2) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <div id=3D"megaphoneModule"> =20=20=20=20=20 <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-col= or:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Ver= dana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transf= orm: uppercase; "><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-= Reality/info;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlbHB1ZWMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3J= wc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQwMDE3NzQ0NA--" styl= e=3D"text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: in= line;"> </ul> </div> <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkNHFkZnVwBF9TAzk3Mz= U5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzd= GltZQMxNDAwMTc3NDQ0" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/r= u/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height=3D"15"= width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! 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