Re: Macroscopic Emergence in MWI worlds
"Ismail Atalay i_c_atalay-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Sun, 13 Jul 2014 13:45:44 +0100
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--1742460241-1846758951-1405255544=:17600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I know it has been quite a while after this discussion and I stayed away fr= om the topic. Nevertheless, just to clarify my position, I think my ideas = below seems to bear resemblence the the relational framework of QM (as init= iated by Borelli in 1996 and of which I did not have absolutely no previous= information). I recently learned about RQM What I call as "convergence fi= eld" seems to correspond to "information". "Interaction with convergence fi= eld" means information acquired through interaction of two QM systems. "Int= ernal change detection" capability corresponds information acquisition capa= bility of a measurement device.=C2=A0 I am sad that I could not formulate = it neatly and from purely information theoretical point of view. But I thin= k my initial idea of the electron in double slit experiment has its own per= spective/experience similar to double slit and to fluorescent screen is som= ewhat close to relational/perspective based QM. When total "uncertainty" (n= o information) is there, the electron experiences all physically possible c= ombinations, it is only when there is information in an observer system, th= e electron physics are shaped accordingly wrt the acquired=C2=A0information= through interaction/measurement. Ismail Atalay On Thursday, 22 August 2= 013, 18:18, Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> wrote: >On 20 Augu= st 2013 13:51 Alan Forrester=C2=A0=C2=A0wrote: =C2=A0 >> On Mon, Aug 19, = 2013 at 3:53 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa-/[email protected]> wrote: >> Isn't "QM minus MWI"= =3D Copenhagen? In other words by "subtracting" MWI, >> you're really add= ing in the collapse postulate, since MWI is just QM >> without collapse. I= disagree with that. I would say QM=3DMWI+"something else". And this "somet= hing else" is very tightly and deeply intertwined with MWI. It is so tight = that MWI does not have an independent ontological existence. >> Are you r= eally just saying that MWI is untestable? I.e. that it doesn't >> make an = refutable predictions? That's a valid criticism. I think IF we >> can bui= ld a large-scale quantum computer, such that it can do more than a >> theor= etical perfectly efficient computer occupying the same spacetime, that >> = would be a refutation of Copenhagen, since all that computation has to be >= > done somewhere. MWI automatically becomes untestable when one accepts tha= t the it does not have an independent ontological existence. This means tha= t MWI only relevant through its interaction and interplay with this "someth= ing else" >The CI makes no predictions. The CI makes ad hoc modifications = of QM >and the precise details of what predictions QM will make depend on t= he >precise details of the modifications. But there is no explanation of >t= hose precise details because if such an explanation existed the >theory wou= ldn't be ad hoc. So the CI makes no predictions. >For example, if the wave = function collapses the precise of details of >where and how that happens wi= ll affect the results of experiments. But >the problem of why we can't see = other versions of objects around us >has been solved by decoherence, so the= re is no need for the collapse >and no explanation of where and how it happ= ens. I agree.=C2=A0 >As a result, the CI can't be used to explain anything= about emergence. >The other "interpretations" of QM have similar problems.= Emergence issue could only be solved if we concentrate on physical princip= les that makes convergence possible within the background provided by SWE a= nd MWI.=C2=A0 Lets' assume there is some kind of exotic "convergence" field= in physical material. So QM=3DMWI+convergence field If we go back to doubl= e-slit experiment, we have an electron that is sent towards an apparatus (d= ouble slit and fluorescent screen). The big question is why this electron (= as one particle) shifts to wave behavior when detached from the electron gu= n whereas when I break the gun into two macro pieces I do not see any QM be= havior in the part that is detached from the gun. =C2=A0It looks like the e= lectron got out of the electron guns' convergence field (that make converge= the gun as a macroscopic object) and could not converge on its own now (ca= n not form a convergence field). It only needs to collide with the fluoresc= ent screen and with this interaction it joins the convergence field of the = screen (from this we deduce that convergence fields could grow and include = new particles upon interaction) and thus materializes accordingly.=C2=A0 So= why a single electron could not converge on its own but some large macro p= art of the electron gun could be detached without any convergence problem? = I think the answer lies in the electron guns "interaction" with its surroun= dings. The detachment of the electron from the electron gun caused the elec= tron remaining outside any (macro) convergence field. =C2=A0This because th= e electron (just after it detachment) is not having any interaction with an= y already existing "macro" convergence field. Once outside the convergence = field, MWI/SWE only aspect dominates until it interacts with another (macro= ) convergence field (that would the slit or the screen).=C2=A0 Here by "int= eraction" I mean all types of interactions with physical surroundings not o= nly the electron colliding to a macro object. For example photons colliding= to the electron and changing directions is also a type of interaction This= might be because the emitter of the photon, the photon itself and the rece= iver still remains within one holistic convergence field. So convergence fi= elds are =C2=A0formed by their "internal change detection" capability as a = whole. In this vein, a large macro chunk could never get out of interaction= with the (macro) convergence fields around it and thus could never exhibit= MWI/SWE only property. But for an electron, it is possible that interactio= n with surrounding convergence fields is non-existent.=C2=A0 When this ele= ctron interacts with the double slit, the interplay between MWI/SWE and con= vergence field immediately begins. Double slit without "internal change det= ection"=C2=A0capability wrt to some fired electrons could not act as conver= gence field (thus wave behavior is kept). Double slit with=C2=A0"internal c= hange detection"=C2=A0capability wrt to fired electrons acts as a convergen= ce field (thus wave behavior disappears upon interaction) If this theory of= mine is correct, "convergence fields" are dynamic physical structures that= could grow/shrink and are defined by their internal change detection capab= ility and holistic behavior. All above should be seen as an effort to expla= in my way of approaching to the problem. =C4=B0smail Atalay=C2=A0 --1742460241-1846758951-1405255544=:17600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helveti= caNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-si= ze:12pt;"><div><span>I know it has been quite a while after this discussion= and I stayed away from the topic.</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, = 0, 0);font-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helveti= ca, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color:= transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);fon= t-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial= , 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color: transpar= ent;"><span>Nevertheless, just to clarify my position, I think my ideas bel= ow seems to bear resemblence the the relational framework of QM (as initiat= ed by Borelli in 1996 and of which I did not have absolutely no previous in= formation). I recently learned about RQM</span></div><div style=3D"color: r= gb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', H= elvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-= color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, = 0);font-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,= Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color: tr= ansparent;"><span>What I call as "convergence field" seems to correspond to= "information". "Interaction with convergence field" means information acqu= ired through interaction of two QM systems. "Internal change detection" cap= ability corresponds information acquisition capability of a measurement dev= ice. </span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 16px;fo= nt-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grand= e', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;"><span><br= ></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica= , Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color: t= ransparent;"><span>I am sad that I could not formulate it neatly and from p= urely information theoretical point of view. But I think my initial idea of= the electron in double slit experiment has its own perspective/experience = similar to double slit and to fluorescent screen is somewhat close to relat= ional/perspective based QM. When total "uncertainty" (no information) is th= ere, the electron experiences all physically possible combinations, it is o= nly when there is information in an observer system, the electron physics a= re shaped accordingly wrt the acquired information through interaction= /measurement.</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 16px= ;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Gr= ande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);fon= t-size: 16px;font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial= , 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style: normal;background-color: transpar= ent;">Ismail Atalay</div> <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div c= lass=3D"yahoo_quoted"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica= Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <d= iv style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,= 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font siz= e=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Thursday, 22 August 2013, 18:18, Ismail Atalay &= lt;i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div clas= s=3D"y_msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv6047484839"><div><div style=3D"color: r= gb(0, 0, 0);font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;font-s= ize: 12pt;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div><br clear=3D"none"></= div><div style=3D"font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;= font-size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york',= times, serif;font-size: 12pt;"><div dir=3D"ltr"> </div> <div class=3D"yiv6= 047484839y_msg_container"><span style=3D"font-family: Georgia;font-size: 13= px;">>On 20 August 2013 13:51 Alan Forrester </span><span style=3D"= font-family: Georgia;font-size: 13px;"> wrote:</span><br clear=3D"none= "><div id=3D"yiv6047484839"> <div> <span> </span> <div id=3D"yiv6047484839ygrp-mlmsg"> <div id=3D"yiv6047484839ygrp-msg"> <div id=3D"yiv6047484839ygrp-text"> =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <div>>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:53 PM, hibbsa <<a rel=3D"n= ofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:hibbsa%40yahoo.com" target=3D"_bl= ank" href=3D"mailto:hibbsa%40yahoo.com">hibbsa-/[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br = clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">>> Isn't "QM min= us MWI" =3D Copenhagen? In other words by "subtracting" MWI,<br clear=3D"n= one">>> you're really adding in the collapse postulate, since MWI is = just QM<br clear=3D"none">>> without collapse.<br clear=3D"none"><br = clear=3D"none">I disagree with that. I would say QM=3DMWI+"something else".= And this "something else" is very tightly and deeply intertwined with MWI.= It is so tight that MWI does not have an independent ontological existence= .<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">>> Are you = really just saying that MWI is untestable? I.e. that it doesn't<br clear= =3D"none">>> make an refutable predictions? That's a valid criticism= . I think IF we<br clear=3D"none">>> can build a large-scale quantum= computer, such that it can do more than a<br clear=3D"none">>> theor= etical perfectly efficient computer occupying the same spacetime, that<br clear=3D"none">>> would be a refutation of Copenhagen, since= all that computation has to be<br clear=3D"none">>> done somewhere.<= /div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia= ;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;">MWI automatically becom= es untestable when one accepts that the it does not have an independent ont= ological existence. This means that MWI only relevant through its interacti= on and interplay with this "something else"<br clear=3D"none"> <br clear=3D"none">>The CI makes no predictions. The CI makes ad hoc mod= ifications of QM<br clear=3D"none">>and the precise details of what pred= ictions QM will make depend on the<br clear=3D"none">>precise details of= the modifications. But there is no explanation of<br clear=3D"none">>th= ose precise details because if such an explanation existed the<br clear=3D"= none">>theory wouldn't be ad hoc. So the CI makes no predictions.</div><= div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-= style: normal;background-color: transparent;">>For example, if the wave = function collapses the precise of details of<br clear=3D"none">>where an= d how that happens will affect the results of experiments. But<br clear=3D"= none">>the problem of why we can't see other versions of objects around = us<br clear=3D"none">>has been solved by decoherence, so there is no nee= d for the collapse<br clear=3D"none">>and no explanation of where and ho= w it happens.</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-famil= y: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;">I agree. = ;</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georg= ia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;"><br clear=3D"none">&g= t;As a result, the CI can't be used to explain anything about emergence.<br= clear=3D"none">>The other "interpretations" of QM have similar problems= .</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georg= ia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;">Emergence issue could= only be solved if we concentrate on physical principles that makes converg= ence possible within the background provided by SWE and MWI. </div><di= v style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-st= yle: normal;background-color: transparent;">Lets' assume there is some kind= of exotic "convergence" field in physical material. So QM=3DMWI+convergence field</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font= -size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: trans= parent;">If we go back to double-slit experiment, we have an electron that = is sent towards an apparatus (double slit and fluorescent screen). The big = question is why this electron (as one particle) shifts to wave behavior whe= n detached from the electron gun whereas when I break the gun into two macr= o pieces I do not see any QM behavior in the part that is detached from the= gun.</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: G= eorgia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;"> It looks li= ke the electron got out of the electron guns' convergence field (that make = converge the gun as a macroscopic object) and could not converge on its own= now (can not form a convergence field). It only needs to collide with the = fluorescent screen and with this interaction it joins the convergence field of the screen (from this we deduce that convergence fields could gro= w and include new particles upon interaction) and thus materializes accordingly. </div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;= font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;">So = why a single electron could not converge on its own but some large macro pa= rt of the electron gun could be detached without any convergence problem?</= div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;= font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;"><span>I think the answer= lies in the electron guns "interaction" with its surroundings. The detachm= ent of the electron from the electron gun caused the electron remaining out= side any (macro) convergence field. This because the electron (just a= fter it detachment) is not having any interaction with any already existing= "macro" convergence field. Once outside the convergence field, MWI/SWE onl= y aspect dominates until it interacts with another (macro) convergence fiel= d (that would the slit or the screen). </span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13= px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;">= <span>Here by "interaction" I mean all types of interactions with physical = surroundings not only the electron colliding to a macro object. For example= photons colliding to the electron and changing directions is also a type o= f interaction This might be because the emitter of the photon, the photon i= tself and the receiver still remains within one holistic convergence field.= So convergence fields are formed by their "internal change detection= " capability as a whole.</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font= -size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: trans= parent;"><span>In this vein, a large macro chunk could never get out of int= eraction with the (macro) convergence fields around it and thus could never exhibit MWI/SWE only property. But for an electron, it is possible t= hat interaction with surrounding convergence fields is non-existent. <= /span><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:= 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent= ;"><span>When this electron interacts with the double slit, the interplay b= etween MWI/SWE and convergence field immediately begins. Double slit withou= t "</span>internal change detection"<span style=3D"background-color:transpa= rent;"> capability wrt to some fired electrons could not act as conver= gence field (thus wave behavior is kept). Double slit with </span><spa= n>"</span><span>internal change detection"</span><span style=3D"background-= color:transparent;"> </span><span style=3D"background-color:transparen= t;">capability wrt to fired electrons acts as a convergence field (thus wave behavior disappears upon = interaction)</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;= font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: transparent;">If = this theory of mine is correct, "convergence fields" are dynamic physical s= tructures that could grow/shrink and are defined by their internal change d= etection capability and holistic behavior.</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0,= 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-c= olor: transparent;">All above should be seen as an effort to explain my way= of approaching to the problem.</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font= -size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-color: trans= parent;"><span>=C4=B0smail Atalay </span></div><div style=3D"color: rg= b(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;backgrou= nd-color: transparent;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0= , 0, 0);font-size: 13px;font-family: Georgia;font-style: normal;background-= color: transparent;"><br clear=3D"none"> </div> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"color:#fff;height:0;"></div></div> </div> =20=20 </div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div> </div> </div> </div></d= iv></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div> </div></div></p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Ismail Atalay <i_c_atalay-/[email protected]> <hr = style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3= E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25663;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxMzVlNzEwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjYzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQwNTI2ODk1OA--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25663">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; 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