Re: GODEL
"Bruno Marchal [email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Thu, 13 Nov 2014 16:24:33 +0100
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail-1--501590857 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04 Nov 2014, at 22:48, [email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote: > > I don't think that Hawkins has come close to proving that the=20=20 > existence of God is improbable. His case can be summarized when he=20=20 > says....""when one person suffers from a delusion it is called=20=20 > insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called=20=20 > religion." > So the belief in the collapse of the wave is a religion. Why not.=20=20 Feynman already called it a "collective hallucination", if I remember=20=20 well. > . > > G=F6del=92s mathematical proof is probably the strongest case for the = =20 > IMPROBABLE existence of God, but this proof simply means that it's=20=20 > just not possible to identify the processes that gave rise to the=20=20 > formation "of all that exists" (or "being")....RobtO > The ancient greeks got this too, by the dream argument, and it was the=20=20 start of science, when we stop to believe that what we see and measure=20=20 is necessarily the "real thing", which might be just hidden by the=20=20 appearance. Note that G=F6del provided a proof of the existence of God, = =20 but it requires you to accept St-Anselmus definition of God, and G=F6del = =20 formalization of that definition, and the alethic modal logic S5.=20=20 Personally, I don't believe in S5, nor do I find the definition of God=20=20 by St-Anselmus the most enlightening one. But his incompleteness theorem, together with his non definability of=20=20 truth (G=F6del-Tarski) makes somehow the arithmetical truth behaving=20=20 like the God of the Platonist, which is not much more than the truth=20=20 we search (as opposed to any truth we might believe to have found). Bruno > >=20 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --Apple-Mail-1--501590857 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><br><div><div>On 04 Nov 2014, at 22:48, <a href=3D"mailto:etre2@sb= cglobal.net">[email protected]</a> [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:</div><br cl= ass=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div style= =3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span> </span> <div i= d=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p> = <strong><font size=3D"2">I don't think that Hawkins has come close to provi= ng that the existence of God is improbable. His case can be summarized when= he says....""when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity= . When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."</font></s= trong></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div>So the belief in the collapse= of the wave is a religion. Why not. Feynman already called it a "collectiv= e hallucination", if I remember well.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d= iv><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"bac= kground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-= msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p><strong><font size=3D"2">.</font></strong></p= ><strong><font size=3D"2"></font></strong><p><strong><font size=3D"2">G=F6d= el=92s mathematical proof is probably the strongest case for the IMPROBABL= E existence of God, but this proof simply means that it's just not possible= to identify the processes that gave rise to the formation "of all that exi= sts" (or "being")....RobtO </font></strong></p></div></div></div></div></bl= ockquote><div><br></div><div>The ancient greeks got this too, by the dream = argument, and it was the start of science, when we stop to believe that wha= t we see and measure is necessarily the "real thing", which might be just h= idden by the appearance. Note that G=F6del provided a proof of the existenc= e of God, but it requires you to accept St-Anselmus definition of God, and = G=F6del formalization of that definition, and the alethic modal logic S5. P= ersonally, I don't believe in S5, nor do I find the definition of God by St= -Anselmus the most enlightening one. </div><div>But his incompleteness= theorem, together with his non definability of truth (G=F6del-Tarski) make= s somehow the arithmetical truth behaving like the God of the Platonist, wh= ich is not much more than the truth we search (as opposed to any truth we m= ight believe to have found).</div><div><br></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br><= /div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"background-= color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><di= v id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div> <= /div> </div> <!-- end group email --> </div></div></blockquote><= br><div apple=3D"true"> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co= llapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 12px= ;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing= : normal;text-align: auto;text-indent: 0px;"><div><div><a href=3D"http://ir= idia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></div><div><= br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br class=3D"Apple= -interchange-newline"> </div><br></p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> <hr style= =3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25671;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxZXRhdXMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjcxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQxNTkyNDA2Mw--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25671">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DRe%3A%20GODEL" st= yle=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DR= e%3A%20GODEL" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Realit= y/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlYzFlOGlnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE= 4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQxNTkyND= A2Mw--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</= a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25670;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2OXJncTBiBF9TAzk= 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjcxBHNlYw= NmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQxNTkyNDA2MwR0cGNJZAMyNTY3MA--" style=3D"text-d= ecoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (2) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Ver= dana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transf= orm: uppercase; "><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-= Reality/info;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlaXE3aXAxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3J= wc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQxNTkyNDA2Mw--" styl= e=3D"text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: in= line;"> </ul> </div> <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkNnNxNWVjBF9TAzk3ND= c2NTkwBGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzd= GltZQMxNDE1OTI0MDYz" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/r= u/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height=3D"15"= width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! 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