Re: Future-Directed Time Travel via Wormhole
"Sol Ngawi solngawi-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:19:37 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
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--miOJlJK0cS0skzF0wvxUVPtQUb990ndnT24EMPD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dec 13, 2014, at 9:24 AM, Elliot Temple <[email protected]> wrote: > On Dec = 11, 2014, at 6:08 PM, solngawi-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality] <Fabric-of-Rea= [email protected]> wrote: >> Alice is a prospective time traveler who i= s considering travelling to the future via a wormhole that has one end anch= ored in the present and the other end anchored at some time in the future. = >> >> Alice is having second thoughts about making the journey because of = a problem that has occurred to her. >>=C2=A0 >> The problem arises because= physical objects in our universe have an associated measure in the multive= rse. She thinks it is correct to say that the measure of a particular macro= scopic object relative to the measure of the same object at an earlier time= is generally a fraction less than one. As the branch of the multiverse con= taining the object evolves, the branch splits an enormous number of times. = During each split, the infinite fungible copies of the object contained in = the branch are partitioned into two or more sets with each (infinite) set n= ow in its own separate child branch of the multiverse. This splitting means= that the measure of the parent branch is larger relative to each child bra= nch. >> >> Alice contemplates this as she stands at the entrance to the wo= rmhole. She knows that the measure of herself as she exits the wormhole in = the future will be smaller relative to the measure of herself as she enters= the wormhole. So what happened to the remaining measure of herself? It cou= ldn't have just vanished. Alice reasons that the remaining measure of herse= lf must not make the journey through the wormhole. The wormhole causes her = to differentiate such that only some measure of herself travels into the fu= ture. >> >> What's more, the further forward into the future the wormhole = enables her to travel, the smaller the measure of herself that makes it thr= ough. So, from her perspective, there is some probability that she will fai= l to time travel and that probability increases as a function of distance i= nto the future of the exit of the wormhole. >> >> Alice hopes that the rem= aining measure of herself that does not time travel is just a person that f= ailed to time travel and not some random soup of particles. >> >> As she = thinks about it more, Alice realizes that some measure of herself would ind= eed get torn apart. Alice is a spatially extended object and can't enter t= he wormhole all at once. > Why are you more worried about Alice's body be= ing divided over a time dimension than over a spatial dimension? Her body i= s already separated in spatial dimensions, rather than being all in the sam= e place. But if it's separated in terms of a time dimension, instead of all= being in the same place, now you worry. What's the difference? I worry a= bout her body being divided over spatial dimensions! Note I realized after = posting that the wormhole must have a branching structure. I initially thou= ght this meant the problem went away but now I'm not convinced. The branchi= ng structure accounts for the measure I alleged didn't time travel because = Alice travels a fixed interval of time into all possible futures of her cur= rent branch. The problem as I see it now is that some parts of her body wil= l start to differentiate before other parts of her body because they entere= d the wormhole first and are ahead in time relative to the rest of her body= . This is a consequence of having spatial dimensions. In everyday life, t= his happens as well. Different parts of our body differentiate before other= parts because nothing can travel faster than light. But in everyday life d= ifferentiation occurs at light speed across all spatial dimensions. In the = wormhole, however, there is a spatial dimension where differentiation occur= s at the speed she is entering the wormhole. This is the spatial dimension = along which she is entering. I am assuming here that waves of differentiati= on do not travel backwards in time to the parts of her body that have not e= ntered. What physical effect does this have on Alice's body? Is she able = to survive a wave of differentiation that travels across her body at the sp= eed with which she is entering the wormhole? It's not just one wave either.= This goes on continually as she progresses through the wormhole. > And ju= st because two spaces are at different times doesn't mean you can't just wa= lk from one to the other. Normally you can't, but the point of a time-trave= l wormhole is it makes different times spatially connected, so walking betw= een them is the same, in terms of space and motion, as walking between diff= erent spaces normally is. Isn't that what we're talking about? A scenario w= here some places are spatially adjacent and can be walked between like walk= ing into a different room, but which have unusual properties regarding time= . Yes, that is what we are talking about. > I think you have an idea so= rta like when your hand is in a different time it must be in a different pl= ace, but that isn't what's going on here, it's not a teleporter, it doesn't= move you to a different place, it's just that if you walk to that place it= 's at a different time and, unusually, places with different times were spa= tially connected. > That's my guess. Correct me if I'm wrong! I wasn't = thinking of something like a teleporter but of something along the lines of= what you say - something you walk along or through. What needs adding to y= our description is that if you walk to a different time in the future you m= ust walk to all possible futures of that time and therefore are not travell= ing to just one future. > Note I'm trying to answer your main question, w= hich was present in previous posts too, not all the details you've added in= this post. If we agree about the above maybe we could try discussing some = more complex points afterwards. Although I've changed my thinking on futu= re-directed time travel, I think the problem I raised about past directed t= ime travel remains. Do you agree that if Alice travels back in time a fixed= interval and then is followed into the same wormhole by Bob that they end = up in different branches of the multiverse? So if Alice and Bob are parts o= f the same person that person is in trouble!? ~Sol --miOJlJK0cS0skzF0wvxUVPtQUb990ndnT24EMPD Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p>On Dec 13, 2014, at 9:24 AM, Elliot Temple <[email protected]> wr= ote:<br> <br> > On Dec 11, 2014, at 6:08 PM, solngawi-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality] &l= t;[email protected]> wrote:<br> <br> >> Alice is a prospective time traveler who is considering travelling= to the future via a wormhole that has one end anchored in the present and = the other end anchored at some time in the future.<br> >> <br> >> Alice is having second thoughts about making the journey because o= f a problem that has occurred to her.<br> >>=C2=A0 <br> >> The problem arises because physical objects in our universe have a= n associated measure in the multiverse. She thinks it is correct to say tha= t the measure of a particular macroscopic object relative to the measure of= the same object at an earlier time is generally a fraction less than one. = As the branch of the multiverse containing the object evolves, the branch s= plits an enormous number of times. During each split, the infinite fungible= copies of the object contained in the branch are partitioned into two or m= ore sets with each (infinite) set now in its own separate child branch of t= he multiverse. This splitting means that the measure of the parent branch i= s larger relative to each child branch.<br> >> <br> >> Alice contemplates this as she stands at the entrance to the wormh= ole. She knows that the measure of herself as she exits the wormhole in the= future will be smaller relative to the measure of herself as she enters th= e wormhole. So what happened to the remaining measure of herself? It couldn= 't have just vanished. Alice reasons that the remaining measure of hers= elf must not make the journey through the wormhole. The wormhole causes her= to differentiate such that only some measure of herself travels into the f= uture. <br> >><br> >> What's more, the further forward into the future the wormhole = enables her to travel, the smaller the measure of herself that makes it thr= ough. So, from her perspective, there is some probability that she will fai= l to time travel and that probability increases as a function of distance i= nto the future of the exit of the wormhole.<br> >> <br> >> Alice hopes that the remaining measure of herself that does not ti= me travel is just a person that failed to time travel and not some random s= oup of particles. <br> >> <br> >> As she thinks about it more, Alice realizes that some measure of h= erself would indeed get torn apart. Alice is a<br> spatially extended object and can't enter the wormhole all at once.<br= > <br> > Why are you more worried about Alice's body being divided over a t= ime dimension than over a spatial dimension? Her body is already separated = in spatial dimensions, rather than being all in the same place. But if it&#= 39;s separated in terms of a time dimension, instead of all being in the sa= me place, now you worry. What's the difference?<br> <br> I worry about her body being divided over spatial dimensions! Note I realiz= ed after posting that the wormhole must have a branching structure. I initi= ally thought this meant the problem went away but now I'm not convinced= . The branching structure accounts for the measure I alleged didn't tim= e travel because Alice travels a fixed interval of time into all possible f= utures of her current branch. The problem as I see it now is that some part= s of her body will start to differentiate before other parts of her body be= cause they entered the wormhole first and are ahead in time relative to the= rest of her body. This is a consequence of having spatial dimensions. <br> <br> In everyday life, this happens as well. Different parts of our body differe= ntiate before other parts because nothing can travel faster than light. But= in everyday life differentiation occurs at light speed across all spatial = dimensions. In the wormhole, however, there is a spatial dimension where di= fferentiation occurs at the speed she is entering the wormhole. This is the= spatial dimension along which she is entering. I am assuming here that wav= es of differentiation do not travel backwards in time to the parts of her b= ody that have not entered. <br> <br> What physical effect does this have on Alice's body? Is she able to sur= vive a wave of differentiation that travels across her body at the speed wi= th which she is entering the wormhole? It's not just one wave either. T= his goes on continually as she progresses through the wormhole.<br> <br> > And just because two spaces are at different times doesn't mean yo= u can't just walk from one to the other. Normally you can't, but th= e point of a time-travel wormhole is it makes different times spatially con= nected, so walking between them is the same, in terms of space and motion, = as walking between different spaces normally is. Isn't that what we'= ;re talking about? A scenario where some places are spatially adjacent and = can be walked between like walking into a<br> different room, but which have unusual properties regarding time.<br> <br> Yes, that is what we are talking about. <br> <br> > I think you have an idea sorta like when your hand is in a different t= ime it must be in a different place, but that isn't what's going on= here, it's not a teleporter, it doesn't move you to a different pl= ace, it's just that if you walk to that place it's at a different t= ime and, unusually, places with different times were spatially connected.<b= r> <br> > That's my guess. Correct me if I'm wrong!<br> <br> I wasn't thinking of something like a teleporter but of something along= the lines of what you say - something you walk along or through. What need= s adding to your description is that if you walk to a different time in the= future you must walk to all possible futures of that time and therefore ar= e not travelling to just one future. <br> <br> > Note I'm trying to answer your main question, which was present in= previous posts too, not all the details you've added in this post. If = we agree about the above maybe we could try discussing some more complex po= ints afterwards.<br> <br> Although I've changed my thinking on future-directed time travel, I thi= nk the problem I raised about past directed time travel remains. Do you agr= ee that if Alice travels back in time a fixed interval and then is followed= into the same wormhole by Bob that they end up in different branches of th= e multiverse? So if Alice and Bob are parts of the same person that person = is in trouble!?<br> <br> ~Sol<br> <br> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Sol Ngawi <solngawi-/[email protected]> <hr style=3D= "height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25682;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxMzBycTNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQxODUxOTg1MA--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25682">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"mailto:solngawi-/[email protected]?subject=3DRe%3A%20Future-D= irected%20Time%20Travel%20via%20Wormhole" style=3D"text-decoration: none; c= olor: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DR= e%3A%20Future-Directed%20Time%20Travel%20via%20Wormhole" style=3D"text-deco= ration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Realit= y/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlOTJmZzc0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE= 4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQxODUxOT= g1MA--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</= a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25680;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2NWk0cDQwBF9TAzk= 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjgyBHNlYw= NmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQxODUxOTg1MAR0cGNJZAMyNTY4MA--" style=3D"text-d= ecoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (2) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Ver= dana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transf= orm: uppercase; "><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-= Reality/info;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlYWllZjVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3J= wc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQxODUxOTg1MA--" styl= e=3D"text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: in= line;"> <li style=3D"border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; di= splay: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class=3D"cat"><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fa= bric-of-Reality/members/all;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJmMTM5ZzFxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElk= AzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzE0MTg= 1MTk4NTA-" style=3D"text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class=3D"ct" style=3D"color: #ff7900;">1</span> </li> </ul> </div> <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkaDQ2YzBmBF9TAzk3Mz= U5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzd= GltZQMxNDE4NTE5ODUw" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/r= u/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height=3D"15"= width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! 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