consensus child care"??? / wasAnother Bush Crime against humanity and Gaia

I certainly agree there is too much eco-destructive energies now on earth.
But no sir, it's not my fault nobody accepts and lives in egalitarian
consensus-organized communities. It's just a bad idea. Cooperation, yes,
community, yes. Those are traditional values civilized societies have
always believe in. But individual freedom and family independence within
cooperating communities is what people want and have always wanted, not
being in some suffocating arrangement where they have to get a committee's
permission (excuse me, I mean consensus) to piss off the front porch. 

And no, just because I say obsession with consensus is going nowhere
doesn't mean I'm pessimistic about life. I constantly promote the Local
Food movement, community self sufficiency, sustainable living, the Old
Ways, and spiritual connection to the land. It's all over my websites and
my own lists I run.  And I actually live what I promote. 

Sorry but "responsible consensus child care"? (from your website)  Are you
serious? Must not have any of your own. "Decisions and actions based on
unanimous agreement"?  Then you won't ever get anything done.  Have you
ever picked up a shovel?

Then your site says "We are looking to attract and create a small core
group of stable, self-reliant, charismatic, grounded, country farmer style
spiritual pioneers as a supportive role model or example that grows and
divides like a cell into supportive splinter pods or families. Our simple
but fair and powerful unique council format guarantees freedom from
control, co-dependency, and domination for all those ready and responsible
enough to get seriously involved."

Forest, I'm not making fun of your ideals. You don't even HAVE a consensus
community, and you  simply won't get people to do things your way. You need
some experience living before you tell everybody else the right way to
live. 

paul [email protected]
http://largocreekfarms.com
http://medicinehill.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 1/31/2005 at 8:28 AM forest wrote:

>on 1/29/05 6:55 PM, Globalcircle at [email protected] wrote:
>
>> 
>> Forest, I really don't want to sound quarrelsome, because I can support
>> some of your vision. I have to say that consensus organized non-profit
>land
>> trust is a strange bird that just can't fly.
>
>i beg to differ, certainly if one is not interested or passionate about
>wanting to evolve and have deeper spiritual connections with nature and
>each
>other, and continue to refine what we don't like about a new system, then
>sure what you say may be true for much of the mass consciousness...but if
>eco-balance is something we are truly passionate about, i see no other
>system that is more likely to create that balance....but we are all ready
>for change and/or evolution at our own rates and times, so sure it is good
>to have many political systems avialable so we can choose....however
imh-bs
>there is too much eco-destructive energies now on earth to ignore the one
>most likely to bring them in balance....
>
>> We've heard endless plans for
>> egalitarian consensus-organized communities for decades.
>
>as i said, it is a paradigm shift waiting to happen, with little or no
>support, and with attitudes like yours, it will never happen for some, but
>for others it is happening now.....i bet democracy was a fantasy to many
>before it ever happened to...or like my dad who says wars will always
>happen, they will never have peace on earth...i don't believe things just
>cause the masses do and don't act on change or evolution....i like to be
on
>the cutting edge of things, to each his/her own i suppose....i suspect all
>positive growth on earth is the result of a few stubborn idealists that
had
>the passion and spirit to keep the faith when others put them down or did
>not believe.....but the eco-destruction clock is ticking....
>
>>  You might
>> consider why they all fail at being true consensus, or just never get
off
>> the ground 99 times out of a hundred.
>
>i do consider that very much for many years, and me own take on it is
cause
>there are so many skeptics like you, and we are all programmed in society
>to
>compete with each other in the old hierarchical traditions, rather than
>make
>more efforts to cooperate....plus it is scarey and humbling too much for
>some because of their ego-centered co-dependant habits in communications
>and
>politics.....
>
>> I don't care if somebody claims a
>> success at that; they're fudging the truth about how they actually work.
>> All projects and organizations have some form of leadership.
>
>well, i can see you are not too intersted....imh-bs the most ideal
>consensus
>council would have members who all have leadership skills, but prefer to
go
>beyond the leader/follower polarity mindset and explore joining with other
>leader types in some expanded, more effective, spiritual group mind
>experience, that is more than the sum of it's parts...not for everyone for
>sure at this time in his-story....but imh-bs the only way to put in check
>the eco-destructive energies on the planet in time to save it....the clock
>is ticking, we can put our head in the sand and ignore it and go back to
>"business and politics as usual" or we can get serious and see/sense that
>technology and monopoly capitalism, and democracy is quickly evolving the
>world and political structures to our detriment....the exponential growth
>of
>technology and capitalism needs to be equaled by exponential growth in
>evolving political structures imh-bs....
>> 
>>> once we create more examples and show the masses how
>>> happy, spiritual, and comfortable we can be, i suspect many others will
>>> join
>> 
>> Must respectfully point out that you can't change human nature.
>
>huWoMan nature has slowly been changing and evolving for millenia....it is
>so slow it appears to some to not be changing at all, but i say there are
>more huWoMan rights and consciousness than ever before in his-story
>globally
>despite the fact that the usa is falling behind it seems....technology is
>moving/changing so fast, that imh-bs political systems need to do the same
>If people wish to survive....your attitude sounds very hopeless to me, i
>cannot accept that, i am eternal optimist, still knowing it may not happen
>in time, i still remain passionate and hopeful.....
>
>> won't accept some form of community that you think right for them, then
>it
>> means it is NOT right for them.
>
>not now perhaps, most are slow to change, most quit after adolescence.....
>but if more and more evolved/improved examples happen around those types
of
>folks, eventually they or their children may eventually see the value in
>health, spirit, happiness in evolving communication and decision making
>systems....
>
>> Now if you really want a more sustainable
>> society, you need to focus on some kind of social organization people
can
>> live with. You can't say, ok I want a more sustainable society, but I
>want
>> it MY way. 
>
>consensus is just the opposite of "my way", it is "our way"....hierarchies
>say it is the way of the most pushy, interuptive, dominant
one/ones....that
>is why we are in the mess we are in today with environment and our sick
>societies....america is falling behind in consciousness imh-bs because of
>folks who think like you....i do not see peace on earth or a clean
>environment without consensus political structures being the norm....
> 
>> I don't see the male dominance as the end-all root cause of all evil. 
>Male
>> dominance is natural in many species for biological survival. It does
not
>> have to mean abusive, acquisitive, or combative.  Having been around the
>> block myself, I'm convinced that women hold as much or more power than
>men
>> in this world because they have something men want -- obviously. You
>should
>> know that.
>
>male dominance has an important place in nature in animal
societies....just
>there are so many human animals now out there in the world, we need to
>refine and evolve better systems of politics in order to survive, plus i
>want more than an animal pecking order consciousness.....ya, now since
>women's lib is more the norm, we have women imitating men in the pecking
>order for jobs and politics as usual, not ideal imh-bs....now we have male
>and female dominance....but women and men imh-bs should listen more to
>intuition in the spirit of left right brain balance for most ideal systems
>to develop....  
>> 
>> I don't see democracy as the best form of government. Why? Because as
the
>> founding father said, that government governs best that governs least.
>> Maximize freedom. Just because some idiot majority passes a law doesn't
>> make it right or just, now does it?  But it's democracy, huh.  No, let
>> common law courts mete out justice. Subject for another day.
>
>i feel democracy, despite it's imperfections, limitations, and corruptions
>is ok for the masses, most of them still need a big brother, but we need
>more choices and options for those ready to move on....i think common law
>has many merits, just remember it originated at the time of the magna
carta
>in england as a means to evolve democratic institutions into being,
because
>many were tired of corrupt dictatorships and monarchies...now is time to
>move on from democracy to consensus, there is still too much corruption,
>tho
>democracy was a major step forward at that time...
>> 
>> Sorry but I have to get off where you state the UN and NATO are
>successful
>> examples of consensus. HUH?? They're corporate, US male dominated war
>> machines and little else.  Sure we want peace, cooperation, and all the
>> rest. But dumb ideas just keep getting in the way, don't they. I'm sure
>> you're set in your ways so I won't try to clarify anymore.
>
>all political systems including consensus can be and are corrupt, even
>common law concepts can be corrupted....but, imh-bs consensus is the least
>corrupt and can be evolved to be even less corrupt...the united nations
>made
>a strong voice against the usa entering iraq, they have their own corrupt
>system to refine, but despite the fact that the usa ignored the united
>nations and went ahead anyway, thank god germany and france did not agree,
>and showed the world that might does not always make right and took a
>stand...and as a result the largest peace demonstration in the world took
>place just before iraq war....cites all over the world were marching on
the
>streets....tho unsuccessful in stoping the war, imh-bs they were
successful
>in showing us the potential if we keep refining the systems or
>processes....you seem to have a very pessimistic approach to
>life.....aloha,
>
>forest
>[email protected]
>http://www.lavazone2.com/forest/
>
>
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