Re: consensus child care"??? / wasAnother Bush Crime against humanity and Gaia

on 1/31/05 9:50 PM, Ron Peltier at [email protected] wrote:

Dude (don't know your name)

ron:
Somehow I got on this list and have been skimming through the avalanche of
messages saving the interesting ones, particularly those regarding
consensus.  When I read yours it struck me very much like something I would
say so I just had to drop you a message.

ron:
About three years ago my wife and I purchased some property with three other
families on the Island where we live with the idea of doing an alternative
minded development, emphasizing open space, modest structures, sustain
ability, etc.  All lofty stuff.  In order to get a group together for this
purpose we tapped into the local established and successful cohousing
community.  Individuals from that group supported us and a couple actually
bought in to the property.  We ended up dividing into building sites,
retaining a fair amount of open space for organic gardening, using our
state's condominium law to create building sites as units, establish rules,
etc.  It's still a work in progress but we have worked through some
difficult issues.  One of the most difficult had to do with decision making
and the idea of consensus.

ron:
The Cohousing folks, and one of our unit owners, have kind of a religious
attitude towards consensus..  I tend to come from a different direction.
Pure consensus, as I understand it, allows for group members to block
decisions when they feel it important to do so.  I do not like the idea of
one person holding up decisions.  Seems to me it gives too much power to
individuals.  The response I get to this is that I just haven't seen the
light and don't really understand what consensus is: I just haven't seen the
light yet; haven't evolved spiritually enough to see clearly.  It's very
frustrating because I do feel like I understand what it's all about and
still have a problem with one person holding the veto power over an entire
group, in those "once in a life time situations".  The problem is that some
people can be prone to quite a few :once in a lifetime situations" that
require them to block decisions.  These the same ones who find it difficult
to explain their ideas in a manner which is compelling to the rest of the
group and who need their hands held during every difficult decision process.

forest:
i too have been in similar situations with consensus decision making, i have
been the sole blocker, and also been blocked by only one for ideas i wished
to pass thru....consensus imh-bs is a serious undertaking, and now after
more and more experience i like to be very careful who i get involved with
in consensus to avoid someone who may be there just to polarize and
disagree......good to carefully get to know everyone before agreeing to join
in group consensus in the first place......one critical factor for me is 12
or less  council members, so i can get to know everyone on a more intimate
friendship level.....i realize consensus is not for everyone, and that some
who are not ready for it, may be creating problematic situations in the
future and attempt to hold back or inhibit the groups progress......but i
also invite and respect that one blocker sometimes in order to look deeper
into the decision we are making or considering...sometimes it can be
invaluable to the success of the group to have one individual holding things
up....it seems to me if the group already has a strong foundation of
consensus agreement on the main mission of the group that these blocking
situations can be minimized and/or dealt with if all are patient and
considerate of each other....i also realize that there are other options
that are compromises to what you call "pure consensus", such as "consensus
minus one" approach of carloline estes, an intentional community consensus
teacher or guide....we can get into consensus slowly and try various styles,
one size fits all is not the case, so good to have various options...but
from me current position and experience, i am interested in 100% unanimous
consensus in groups of twelve or less....i realize it is quite idealistic,
but that is the type individual i am, and as i said before, i think the
world problems are adding up, and in order to survive we need idealistic
options more than ever in his-story...

ron:
Ironically, while making the transition from an LLC, which purchased our
property, to a Condominium, we were legally bound to make decisions by
consensus.  I used this to block adoption of the pure form of consensus into
our new bylaws.  Somewhat ironic, but hey, I felt very strongly about it.  I
had no problem blocking perpetual consensus by using temporary consensus.
In all truth, I wasn't the only one in our group who had a problem with pure
consensus.  Just the one who made it clear I wouldn't accept it a a
permanent fixture under any circumstance.  What this eventually led to was a
modified consensus process.  Our bylaws provide for a majority vote over
ride after a proscribed time period of hand holding and discussion.  It's
sort of a compromise but does eliminate the possibility of someone creating
a problem and then protecting themselves by blocking decisions intended to
address that problem.

forest:
i agree with your position in larger groups for sure when i do not know
everyone very personally...am curious how many are in your group who are
voting and discussing????....i do however feel there are ways to deal with a
blocker who is blocking for no apparent reason other than to get attention
or polarize....in those situations i attempt to get more peer group support
in heartfully, diplomatically, and assertively confronting that individual
with his/her reasoning....and to attempt to think of options or compromises
that we might all agree on....this i find as challenging and interesting in
the spirit of really trying to have everyone feel good once the decision is
made....if we already have a strong foundation of consensus that i am happy
about, sometimes those little consensus issues that get blocked  by one can
be dropped or put on the back burner for further discussion later after new
ideas and time have come into play.....

ron:
It's always interesting to me how the mind of the true believer functions.
If you don't agree with them you then represent a lesser form of what is
true and righteous: you then reflect imperfection by virtue of your refusal
to accept their truth as your personal savior.

forest:
it seems to me that all people are ready for growth and change in varying
degrees, no two are exactly at the same level or degree of readiness for
what i might call spiritual evolution......therefore i think it is good to
have all the various forms of decision making, from majority rule to pure
consensus, so we can all be invovled in the style that suits us at various
times in our life.....i think each individual should have the right to
choose when and where and how much they wish to pursue ideals in life....at
some point those ideals lead us to group cooperation....so, we should be
careful who we get involved with and what the agreements are before agreeing
and carefully consider the degree of consensus we are ready or willing to
participate in.....

ron:
 This is fucking bull shit, arrogant, and narrow minded.  Many of these
types of folks are wonderful people but I believe they have chosen to shut
down a part of their mind in order to take refuge from the complexity of
life.

forest:
that is your point of view from your postition and interaction with them,
perhaps because you did not consider the ramifications of the level of
consensus in the beginning they were interested in, and were not/are not
ready to commit to what you call "pure consensus"....i would do the same if
the group is more than twelve, but if twelve or less i would be willing to
take on the challenge of pure consensus and have many times already....even
when i was blocked off and on, i found it interesting and educational in
huWoMan interactions and spirit.....to each his/her own, sounds like you
made some good choices in modifying your group dynamics....best wishes on
your group efforts....aloha,

-- 
forest
[email protected]
http://www.lavazone2.com/forest/