Re: Use of <q> within <rs>

Hi James-- In Scott's first example, it looked like a good case for
<quote>, as in a quote from an external source as I imagine this is. So
perhaps we'd want to code it thus, if it's a quote from the surveyor or
something:

 <rs type="findspot">said to have been found <quote>5 km from centre
   [of <placeName>Bath</placeName>], near a quarry near a villa</quote></rs>

That's the use that looks odd to us because it's longer than the usual way
we use <rs>. Still, it seems plausible to me for an archaeology project to
have longer referring strings tied to locational specs. In this example,
I'd probably want to nest the <rs> inside the <q>, or rather, in this case,
I think, a <quote> element.

But in Scott's second example, and in the example Lou provided, these seem
to be a more typical case, and one I think I've seen before. And here,
sure, if the <q> isn't explicitly pointing to an outside source, it would
just be <q>:

 <rs type="findspot">in excavation, re-used in a fourth-century
   <q>chalet</q></rs>

If this whole string refers to the location of a findspot, it seems to make
sense inside the <rs>, though I wonder if it should surround just:
 <rs>fourth-century <q>chalet</q></rs>. Still, we see the same problem:
These uses of <q> and <quote> are neither one of them permitted inside of
<rs>, and that's the issue worth discussing here. I've opened a ticket on
GitHub requesting discussion--do you see any issues with nesting q or quote
inside rs?

Elisa


On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 1:42 PM, James Cummings <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Hi Elisa (and others)
>
> I think you would mean <q> there instead of <quote> with the former
> meaning that it is in quotation marks, the latter really means that it is a
> quotation ascribed to an external agency.
>
> Like Lou I've always understood <rs> as a phrase more directly referencing
> a named entity. It is a name or identifying phrase that is not a proper
> noun (for which they should use <name>) like 'my lovely wife', 'her', 'the
> young gentleman'.
>
> Since I suspect this is an EpiDoc usage perhaps someone who knows that TEI
> subset well can comment on what their recommended usage is.
>
> James
>
> --
> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford
>
> On 30 Oct 2016 5:05 p.m., Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Lou: I was thinking that the use of rs looked a little long here, too, but
> might make sense in the project. But <rs> with an @type set to "findspot"
> seems a lot more precise than to use an <ab> (anonymous block, or "any
> arbitrary component-level unit of text"). I can see how an archaeology
> project would want to look at referring strings of text associated with
> location.
>
> But even if rs is usually something of a shorter phrase, why shouldn't it
> contain quoted material? So, for example, what about:
>
> <rs>The town <quote>formerly known as Princeton</quote></rs>?
>
> We can't simultaneously indicated quotation from another source, or the
> presence of quotation marks (with <q>) in this. Come to think of it, one of
> my student project-teams ran into this problem last year in coding a series
> of newspaper articles with quoted dialogue.
>
> Elisa
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Lou Burnard <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> I think this is quite a strange use of <rs> : the phrases you quote are
> some way away from things like "the village" or "over there" or even "The
> town formerly known as Princeton", in that though they do refer to a
> location, they don't really name it. So (in the absence of a specific
> <findspot> element) I think I'd argue for using an <ab> here, with an
> appropriate type i.e. <ab type="findspot">. In which case <q> and indeed
> <rs> would all be unequivocally available.
>
>
>
>
>  On 30/10/16 16:47, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:
>
> Hello, Scott--
> I was a little surprised to find that <rs> couldn't contain either a <q>
> or (perhaps more precisely here) a <quote> element, but that's so. I
> imagine this is because <rs> is thought to be sitting below the level of
> the quotation marks. As defined in Chapter 3 of the Guidelines, rs
> (referring string) is a "a phrase which refers to some person, place,
> object, etc." So the question is, are your examples of <rs> holding a
> little too much, and should they be sitting inside the <q> elements? In
> your first example, maybe, but in your second example, clearly not--we'd be
> losing referential information about your findspot if we wrapped only
> chalet in the rs.
>
> This is perhaps a good opportunity for a ticket to permit <q> and <quote>
> inside <rs>. What do others think? I'm happy to take this to my colleagues
> on Council.
>
> Best,
> Elisa
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Scott Vanderbilt (TEI-L) <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> Is there any particular reason why <q> is not permitted within <rs>?
>
> I am attempting to mark-up archaeological findspots that occasionally
> quote from another text, e.g.:
>
>    <rs type="findspot">said to have been found <q>5 km from centre
>    [of <placeName>Bath</placeName>], near a quarry near a villa</q></rs>
>
> and
>
>    <rs type="findspot">in excavation, re-used in a fourth-century
>    <q>chalet</q></rs>
>
> However, <rs> does not permit such usage of <q> (or <quote> for that
> matter), notwithstanding its being defined as "a _general purpose_ name or
> referring string".
>
> Is there some other sanctioned method of accomplishing my goal of
> distinguishing the quoted text from the passages within which they appear?
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
> 150 Finoli Drive
> Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
> E-mail: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Development site: http://newtfire.org
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewtfire.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cebb8%40PITT.EDU%7C0bc162d32e3d49bfe22e08d400ec795d%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1&sdata=b3EWL3Vc26d%2BAvLvHFz4e3uCF5hIjKsKZ9cKjtzfWcs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
> 150 Finoli Drive
> Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
> E-mail: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Development site: http://newtfire.org
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewtfire.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cebb8%40PITT.EDU%7C0bc162d32e3d49bfe22e08d400ec795d%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1&sdata=b3EWL3Vc26d%2BAvLvHFz4e3uCF5hIjKsKZ9cKjtzfWcs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>


-- 
Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
150 Finoli Drive
Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
E-mail: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Development site: http://newtfire.org