Re: @xml:base with @rendition (and maybe other pointers)

Martin Holmes <[email protected]> Wed, 3 May 2017 08:20:54 -0700
Newsgroups gmane.text.tei.general
Message-ID <[email protected]>
On 2017-05-03 05:50 AM, Hugh Cayless wrote:
> I might argue that in the case of a born-digital document, since it
> *is* the original, the encoder is on solid ground saying how they
> want it rendered with @rendition.

I would think of it as slightly more nuanced than that. The author might=20
use rendition features to describe how, in their mind, an ideal version=20
of the document would look. So you might have this (using @style for=20
simplicity):

<emph style=3D"font-weight: bold;">way too big</emph>

whereas the editor of journal X would be free to ignore that if the=20
journal's styleguide says that emphasized text is shown in italics, not=20
bold. The journal's style would be applied based on the <emph> tag (what=20
the text is) rather than the @style attribute (what the author asserts=20
the text should look like). The author is of course free to apply their=20
own rendition rules for a version of the document they're publishing=20
independently for some reason, outside the context of a larger volume,=20
issue, collection or whatever.

Cheers,
Martin

>
> Sent from my phone.
>
>> On May 3, 2017, at 08:34, Martin Holmes <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-05-03 05:26 AM, John P. McCaskey wrote: Another reason to
>>> design for internal renditions only:
>>>
>>> Renditions are supposed to indicate how a source document is
>>> formatted, not how a TEI document should be presented.
>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>>> Someone will say, =E2=80=9CI want an external renditions file so I ca=
n
>>> easily change the formatting of, say, <head> elements on all my
>>> TEI files.=E2=80=9C But that is to misuse <rendition>. Renditions are
>>> supposed to be document-specific. There is an argument that
>>> external renditions should be positively disallowed.
>>
>> I often use the rendition descriptions in a document to try to
>> render a digital edition as similarly as possible to the original;
>> this is surely not abusive. But there is also the case of
>> born-digital documents such as modern journal articles. Would you
>> want to ban the use of <rendition> and @rendition for such
>> documents on the basis that there's no original source that's being
>> described?
>>
>> I don't necessarily disagree with this; there's a reasonable
>> argument that says in a digitally-authored document, you can simply
>> tag correctly (i.e. identify what everything _is_), and then the
>> rendering should apply the appropriate formatting based on the
>> journal's house style. But one can imagine all sorts of exceptions
>> (such as quotations from primary sources inside the article).
>>
>> Cheers, Martin
>>
>>> Corpus-wide formatting changes should be done with stylesheets,
>>> not external rendition pointers.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 5/3/2017 8:08 AM, John P. McCaskey wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I started this because of a multi-purpose stylesheet I have.
>>>>
>>>> I think I=E2=80=99ll keep the bug and promote it as a feature:
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=9CExternal renditions are not supported; renditions ignore
>>>> xml:base. So go ahead and encode with local file names
>>>> throughout your document. Later when you deploy, use xml:base
>>>> to set a root directory for those files and your renditions
>>>> won=E2=80=99t get messed up.=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>> -- John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/2/2017 5:39 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 2, 2017, at 17:07, Syd Bauman
>>>>> <[email protected]
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hugh --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where does it say the interpretation of a fragment ID *with
>>>>>> respect to its @xml:base* depends on the media type?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe it does. I was looking at things like
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/fragid-best-practices/, which says
>>>>> that the behaviors with regard to fragment references depend
>>>>> on the media type. To be sure, I'm not certain we'd actually
>>>>> be free to define a custom behavior for fragment ids because
>>>>> we have to follow the behaviors defined for XML. They're
>>>>> thinking particularly of cases where you might not have the
>>>>> whole file.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't see how we could insist #word-type URIs would result
>>>>> in the retrieval of a different document. As Michael says,
>>>>> the assumption is that you've already got the referenced
>>>>> document, even if the base points to a different one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I think a base URI is specific to an element (which
>>>>>> might be the whole document, might not).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I think the quoted passage is saying that a fragment
>>>>>> ID points to the same document as the base URI in effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I'm not at all sure the paragraph in the xml:base spec
>>>>>> does say that fragment IDs should honor the xml:base. But
>>>>>> then again, I'm not at all sure it *doesn't* say that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't read RFC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In XML, isn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cbase URI=E2=80=9C something specif=
ic to an
>>>>>>> element, not to the document?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so, the passage quoted is not saying that fragment IDs
>>>>>>> can point only to the document they are in, just that a
>>>>>>> fragment ID points to the same document as the base URI
>>>>>>> in effect for the containing XML element.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn=E2=80=99t this paragraph
>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/#matching> say fragment
>>>>>>> IDs should honor the complete xml:base value in effect
>>>>>>> for the attribute=E2=80=99s element?
>>>>
>>>