Re: @xml:base with @rendition (and maybe other pointers)
Hugh Cayless <[email protected]> Wed, 3 May 2017 20:03:35 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.text.tei.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail-BA367575-280F-4E69-A67F-7EB7B118375F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=cp932 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those are the cards we've been dealt, yeah.=20 Sent from my phone.=20 > On May 3, 2017, at 19:53, John P. McCaskey <[email protected]> wrot= e: >=20 > So, bottom line: A standalone fragment identifier refers to the loaded doc= ument and all the xml:base values above it in the hierarchy are irrelevant. E= ncoders cannot use xml:base to direct a standalone #fragment value to a loca= tion outside the loaded document. >=20 > Is that right? >=20 > -- >=20 >=20 >> On 5/3/2017 6:20 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote: >> No. This clarifies the expected behavior when (e.g.) you have @xml:base=3D= "#frag". It says nothing whatever about <p rendition=3D"#foo">. I don't thin= k these specifications interact in the way you're positing. Quite the opposi= te. >>=20 >>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 6:13 PM, John P. McCaskey <[email protected]= om> wrote: >>> The special behavior of same-document references in RFC 3986 is disavowe= d by W3C:=20 >>> 4.4 Interpretation of same-document references >>>=20 >>> RFC 3986 defines certain relative URI references, in particular the empt= y string and those of the form #fragment, as same-document references. Deref= erencing of same-document references is handled specially. However, their us= e as the value of an xml:base attribute does not involve dereferencing, and X= ML Base processors should resolve them in the usual way. In particular, xml:= base=3D"" does not reset the base URI to that of the containing document. >>>=20 >>> Note: >>>=20 >>> Some existing processors do treat these xml:base values as resetting the= base URI to that of the containing document, so the use of such values is s= trongly discouraged. >>> This says: >>> RFC 3986 defines special =81gdereferencing=81h of empty strings and #fra= gments. But over here in XML-land, we don=81ft do =81gdereferencing.=81g Tha= t=81fs not a word we use here. Ignore that stuff about same-document referen= ces. Just resolve empty strings and #fragments as specified in the W3C Recom= mendation above. And those of you who did carry that stuff over from 3986 to= XML-land, shame on you. You messed things up for the rest of us.=20 >>>=20 >>> A note has: >>> 5. The meanings of xml:base=3D"" and xml:base=3D"#frag" have been clarif= ied; >>> This says:=20 >>> In this second version of this recommendation, we added paragraph 4.4 sp= ecifically to get you 3986 people to stop polluting our W3C with your specia= l cases. Stop doing that. >>> No? >>>=20 >>> -- John >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 5/3/2017 5:09 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote: >>>> That's exactly what it does. It's just that the behavior of same-docume= nt references is prescribed in such a way that they end up resolving to the c= urrent document regardless of the value of the @xml:base. >>>>=20 >>>> Put another way, @xml:base has an influence on what the client applicat= ion will retrieve when it dereferences a URI and retrieves the referenced do= cument, but in the case of same-document references no such retrieval is exp= ected to occur=81\it's assumed the client already has the document. >>>>=20 >>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:29 PM, John P. McCaskey <mailbox@johnmccaskey= .com> wrote: >>>>> Oh. I thought it obvious they all resolved the same.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think the same about this one. You think otherwise? >>>>>=20 >>>>> <div xml:base=3D"http://www.myteiproject.com/" >>>>> <div xml:base=3D"images/"> >>>>> <div> >>>>> <graphic url=3D"logo.jpg"> >>>>> </div> >>>>> <div xml:base=3D"http://www.dictionary.com/words/"> >>>>> <p xml:base=3D"a.html"> >>>>> <ref target=3D"#apple">apple</ref> >>>>> </p> >>>>> </div> >>>>> </div> >>>>> </div>=20 >>>>> I didn=81ft think xml:base had any necessary relation to the current d= ocument. I thought in XML (not HTML), it just sets a path for URIs below it.= >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 5/3/2017 3:42 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote: >>>>>> Well, we don't know about the third one, except that it points to wha= tever element *in the same document* has the @xml:id "apple". When an applic= ation attempts to dereference it, it should make the URI in @ref absolute an= d check it against the base (http://www.dictionary.com/words/a.html), discov= er they are identical, decide it doesn't need to fetch anything, and go look= ing in the current document for the element with the id "apple". >>>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 3:27 PM, John P. McCaskey <mailbox@johnmccask= ey.com> wrote: >>>>>>> Are people proposing that these targets do not all resolve=20 >>>>>>> to the same http://www.dictionary.com/words/a.html#apple? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> <div xml:base=3D"http://www.dictionary.com/"> >>>>>>> <p xml:base=3D"words/"> >>>>>>> <ref target=3D"a.html#apple">apple</ref> >>>>>>> </p> >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> <div xml:base=3D"http://www.dictionary.com/words/"> >>>>>>> <p xml:base=3D"a.html"> >>>>>>> <ref target=3D"#apple">apple</ref> >>>>>>> </p> >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> <div xml:base=3D"http://www.dictionary.com/words/a.html"> >>>>>>> <p> >>>>>>> <ref target=3D"#apple">apple</ref> >>>>>>> </p> >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> <div xml:base=3D"http://www.dictionary.com/"> >>>>>>> <p> >>>>>>> <ref target=3D"words/a.html#apple">apple</ref> >>>>>>> </p> >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> --=20 --Apple-Mail-BA367575-280F-4E69-A67F-7EB7B118375F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Those are the cards we've been dealt, y= eah. <br><br>Sent from my phone. </div><div><br>On May 3, 2017, at= 19:53, John P. McCaskey <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mai= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">= <div> =20 <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"= > =20 =20 <p><font size=3D"-1">So, bottom line: A standalone fragment identifier refers to the loaded document and all the <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-f= reetext" href=3D"xml:base">xml:base</a> values above it in the hierarchy are irrelevant. Encoders cannot use <a class=3D"= moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"xml:base">xml:base</a> to direct a standalone #fragment value to a location outside the loaded document.</font></p> <p><font size=3D"-1">Is that right?</font></p> <p><font size=3D"-1">--<br> </font></p> <p><font size=3D"-1"></font><br> </p> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><font size=3D"-1">On 5/3/2017 6:20 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote:</font><br> </div> <blockquote cite=3D"mid:CAObhq+ce0XdEgfuUGGf=3DvMHj4JtPtAGwoe9BgL_Hxqc_H= [email protected]" type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"-1">No. This clarifies the expected behavior when (e.g.) you have @<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" h= ref=3D"xml:base=3D">xml:base=3D</a>"#frag". It says nothing whatever about <p rendition=3D"#foo">. I don't think these specifications interact in the way you're positing. Quite the opposite.</font></div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><font size=3D"-1"><br> </font> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><font size=3D"-1">On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 6:13 PM, John P. McCaskey <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a moz-do-not-se= nd=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">mailb= [email protected]</a>></span> wrote:</font><br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> <p>The special behavior of same-document references in RFC 3986 is disavowed by W3C: <br> </p> <span class=3D""> <blockquote> <p><font size=3D"-2">4.4 Interpretation of same-document references<br> <br> RFC 3986 defines certain relative URI references, in particular the empty string and those of the form #fragment, as same-document references. Dereferencing of same-document references is handled specially. However, their use as the value of an <b><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-36802= 29684002831364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base</a> attribute does not</b> <b>involve </b>dereferencing,= and XML Base processors should resolve them in the usual way. In particular, <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" c= lass=3D"m_-3680229684002831364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a>"" does not reset the base URI to that of the containing document.<br> <br> Note:<br> <br> Some existing processors do treat these <a moz-do-not-= send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base= </a> values as resetting the base URI to that of the containing document, so the use of such values is strongly discouraged.</font><br> </p> </blockquote> </span> This says:<br> <blockquote>RFC 3986 defines special =E2=80=9Cdereferencing=E2= =80=9D of empty strings and #fragments. But over here in XML-land, we don=E2=80=99t do =E2=80=9Cdereferencing.=E2=80=9C That=E2= =80=99s not a word we use here. Ignore that stuff about same-document references. Just resolve empty strings and #fragments as specified in the W3C Recommendation above. And those of you who did carry that stuff over from 3986 to XML-land, shame on you. You messed things up for the rest of us. <br> </blockquote> <br> A note has:<br> <blockquote><font size=3D"-2">5. The meanings of <a moz-do-not= -send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:bas= e=3D</a>"" and <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-36802296840028= 31364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a>"#frag" have been clarified;</font><br> </blockquote> This says: <br> <blockquote>In this second version of this recommendation, we added paragraph 4.4 specifically to get you 3986 people to stop polluting our W3C with your special cases. Stop doing that.<br> </blockquote> No?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> <br> -- John</font></span> <div> <div class=3D"h5"><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <div class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364moz-cite-prefix">On 5/3/2017 5:09 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr">That's exactly what it does. It's just that the behavior of same-document references is prescribed in such a way that they end up resolving to the current document regardless of the value of the @<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D= "m_-3680229684002831364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base</a>. <div><br> </div> <div>Put another way, @<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" cla= ss=3D"m_-3680229684002831364moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base</a> has an influence on what the client application will retrieve when it dereferences a URI and retrieves the referenced document, but in the case of same-document references no such retrieval is expected to occur=E2=80=94it's assumed t= he client already has the document.</div> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:29 PM, John P. McCaskey <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a m= oz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_= blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> <p><font size=3D"-1">Oh. I thought it obvious they all resolved the same. <br> </font></p> <p><font size=3D"-1">I think the same about this one. You think otherwise?<br> </font></p> <pre><font size=3D"-1"><div <a moz-do-not-sen= d=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516606003097729134moz-txt-link= -freetext">xml:base=3D</a><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684= 002831364m_-7516606003097729134moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"http://www.myt= eiproject.com/" target=3D"_blank">"http://www.myteiproj<wbr>ect.com/"</a> <div <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516= 606003097729134moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a>"images/"> <div> <graphic url=3D"logo.jpg"> </div> <div <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-75= 16606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a= ><span class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516606003097729134m_-1417418399130= 310658moz-txt-link-rfc2396E">"<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-368022= 9684002831364m_-7516606003097729134moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www= " target=3D"_blank">http://www</a>.<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http:= //dictionary.com/words/" target=3D"_blank">dictionar<wbr>y.com/words/</a>"</= span>> <p <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-75= 16606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a= >"a.html"> <ref target=3D"#apple">apple</ref> </p> </div> </div> </div>=20 </font></pre><p><font size=3D"-1">I didn=E2=80=99t think <a moz-do-not-send=3D= "true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516606003097729134moz-txt-link-fre= etext">xml:base</a> had any necessary relation to the current document. I th= ought in XML (not HTML), it just sets a path for URIs below it.</font></p><p= ><font size=3D"-1">-- </font></p><div><div class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364h5"> <div class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516606003097729134moz-cite-prefix">O= n 5/3/2017 3:42 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote: </div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Well, we don't know about t= he third one, except that it points to whatever element *in the same documen= t* has the @<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-75= 16606003097729134moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:id</a> "apple". When an applicat= ion attempts to dereference it, it should make the URI in @ref absolute and c= heck it against the base (<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684= 002831364m_-7516606003097729134gmail-m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-rfc2= 396E" href=3D"http://www.dictionary.com/words/a.html" style=3D"white-space:p= re-wrap" target=3D"_blank">http://www.dictionary.com/wor<wbr>ds/a.html</a>),= discover they are identical, decide it doesn't need to fetch anything, and g= o looking in the current document for the element with the id "apple".</div>= <div class=3D"gmail_extra"> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 3:27 PM, John P. McCaskey <= span dir=3D"ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:mailbox@john= mccaskey.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrot= e: <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> =20 =20 =20 <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> <pre><font size=3D"-1">Are people proposing that these targets do not al= l resolve=20 to the same <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-75= 16606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http:/= /www.dictionary.com/words/a.html#apple" target=3D"_blank">http://www.diction= ary.com/word<wbr>s/a.html#apple</a>? </font><font size=3D"-1"><div <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-368= 0229684002831364m_-7516606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-fre= etext">xml:base=3D</a><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-36802296840028= 31364m_-7516606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href= =3D"http://www.dictionary.com/" target=3D"_blank">"http://www.dictionar<wbr>= y.com/"</a>> <p <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516= 606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a>"= words/"> <ref target=3D"a.html#apple">apple</r<wbr>ef> </p> </div> <div <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-751660= 6003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a><a m= oz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-751660600309772913= 4m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"http://www.dictionary.= com/words/" target=3D"_blank">"http://www.dictionar<wbr>y.com/words/"</a>>= ; <p <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-7516= 606003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a>"= a.html"> <ref target=3D"#apple">apple</ref> </p> </div> <div <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-751660= 6003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a><a m= oz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-751660600309772913= 4m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"http://www.dictionary.= com/words/a.html" target=3D"_blank">"http://www.dictionar<wbr>y.com/words/a.= html"</a>> <p> <ref target=3D"#apple">apple</ref> </p> </div> <div <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-751660= 6003097729134m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-freetext">xml:base=3D</a><a m= oz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-751660600309772913= 4m_-1417418399130310658moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"http://www.dictionary.= com/" target=3D"_blank">"http://www.dictionar<wbr>y.com/"</a>> <p> <ref target=3D"words/a.html#apple">ap<wbr>ple</ref> </p> </div></font><span class=3D"m_-3680229684002831364m_-75166060030977291= 34HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"> <font size=3D"-1"> --=20 </font></font></span></pre> </div> </blockquote></div> </div> </blockquote> </div></div></div></blockquote></div> </div> </blockquote> </div></div></div></blockquote></div> </div> </blockquote> </div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-BA367575-280F-4E69-A67F-7EB7B118375F--