Re: RE: The limits of XML mean the limits of my data world

A friend of mine, a pianist, arranger and composer who also teaches 
music at Leipzig's academy of music and theater, writes his compositions 
in Finale [1] and exchanges them with other people as MusicXML. MusicXML 
supports overlapping staff groups, as can be seen in example 
41f-StaffGroups-Overlapping.xml on [2]. MusicXML's slurs are "composed" 
of milestone elements, as can be seen in [3], adopting a popular method 
to represent overlap in XML.

I don't have statistics about how many contemporary composers write 
music conventionally on sheets or electronically with Finale etc., but I 
guess that most of them use software nowadays. And this software more 
likely than not has XML as an exchange or even as a native storage 
format. And that XML interchange format is able to represent overlap.

Gerrit

[1] https://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/
[2] 
https://web.mit.edu/music21/doc/developerReference/musicxmlTest.html#multiple-parts-staves
[3] 
https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/musicxml-reference/examples/slur-element/



On 30.05.2022 20:29, Dimitre Novatchev wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 11:13 PM Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> 
>     You can express or represent (I regard both terms as synonymous wrt the
>     current discussion) such an overlap in XML, see for example how the
>     Common Music Notation handles overlap in beams or slurs (search for
>     "overlap" on [1]). It's just that you cannot express it using
>     overlapping elements.
> 
>     [1] https://music-encoding.org/guidelines/v4/content/cmn.html
>     <https://music-encoding.org/guidelines/v4/content/cmn.html>
> 
> 
> The fact is that no conductor in the world is using CMN, do they? :)
> 
> Just the "old-fashioned", non-xml-based musical scores ...
> 
> If "XML is one's language" and they have to conduct an orchestra, what 
> are the chances they will use CMN and not  the  "old-fashioned", 
> non-xml-based musical scores ?
> Does even a single such example exist?
> 
> Luckily, no one has ever tried to represent a Venn diagram with XML...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat 
> everything as if it were a nail"
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument>)
> 
> To quote from this source:
> 
> The notion of a /golden hammer,/ "a familiar technology or concept 
> applied obsessively to many software problems", was introduced into 
> information technology 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology> literature in 
> 1998 as an anti-pattern <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern>: a 
> programming practice to be avoided.
> 
> Software developer José M. Gilgado has written that the law is still 
> relevant in the 21st century and is highly applicable to software 
> development. Many times software developers, he observed, "tend to use 
> the same known tools to do a completely new different project with new 
> constraints". He blamed this on "the comfort zone 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_zone> state where you don't 
> change anything to avoid risk. The problem with using the same tools 
> every time you can is that you don't have enough arguments to make a 
> choice because you have nothing to compare to and is limiting your 
> knowledge." The solution is "to keep looking for the best possible 
> choice, even if we aren't very familiar with it".
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Dimitre
> 
> 
> 
>     On 30.05.2022 05:55, Dimitre Novatchev wrote:
>      >  >   > XML may not be good at representing concurrency (overlap
>     just on
>      > one-dimension -- time).
>      >  >
>      >  >   Is this an example of concurrency?
>      >
>      > Concurrency is any overlap on the time axis.
>      >
>      > A good example is the scores used by the director of an orchestra.
>      > Because of the concurrency of playing of the different groups of
>     musical
>      > instruments within an orchestra, their scores are printed not in one
>      > continuous linear line, but on many parallel horizontal lines one
>     below
>      > the other as the musical durations of non-paused play of these
>     different
>      > instrumental groups overlap horizontally, where the
>     horizontal axis from
>      > left to write expresses the time.
>      >
>      > Say you have a violin and a clarinet. The violin plays a single
>     tone in
>      > the interval [t1, t2] and the clarinet plays another tone in the
>      > interval [t3, t4]. And   t1 < t3 < t2 < t4    or    t3 < t1 < t4
>     < t2.
>      >
>      > With XML one cannot represent such partial overlaps, but overlaps
>     where
>      > one of the durations completely contains the other (which is not
>      > generally the rule in music), can be represented by two elements,
>     the
>      > second of which is contained in the scope of the first: t1 <= t3
>     < t4 <=
>      > t2   or t3 <= t1 < t2 <=t4
>      >
>      >
>      > On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 12:08 PM Roger L Costello
>     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>      > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     Peter wrote:
>      >
>      >      > overlap can be expressed but not represented
>      >
>      >     I am not clear what you mean by "overlap". Is this an example of
>      >     overlap:
>      >
>      >     Classroom1 is used for teaching math, science, and writing.
>      >     Classroom2 is used for teaching art, history, and writing.
>      >
>      >     There is overlap between the topics taught in classroom1 and
>      >     classroom2 -- writing. Is that what you mean by "overlap"?
>      >
>      >     If so, can't that be expressed in XML something like this:
>      >
>      >     <Classrooms>
>      >          <Classroom1>
>      >              <ClassesTaught>
>      >                  <Class>math</Class>
>      >                  <Class>science</Class>
>      >                  <Class>writing</Class>
>      >              </ClassesTaught>
>      >          </Classroom1>
>      >          <Classroom2>
>      >              <ClassesTaught>
>      >                  <Class>art</Class>
>      >                  <Class>history</Class>
>      >                  <Class>writing</Class>
>      >              </ClassesTaught>
>      >          </Classroom2>
>      >     </Classrooms>
>      >
>      >     Dimitre wrote:
>      >
>      >      > XML may not be good at representing concurrency (overlap
>     just on
>      >     one-dimension -- time).
>      >
>      >     Is this an example of concurrency?
>      >
>      >     During times 1 - 3 John Doe is driving from Boston to NYC and
>     during
>      >     the same times Sally Smith is driving from LA to San Diego.
>      >
>      >     Is that an example of what you mean? If so, can't that be
>     expressed
>      >     in XML something like this:
>      >
>      >     <DrivingTrips>
>      >          <Person>
>      >              <Name>John Doe</Name>
>      >              <Itinerary>
>      >                  <Start>Boston</Start>
>      >                  <End>NYC</End>
>      >              </Itinerary>
>      >              <DriveTimes>
>      >                  <Time1/>
>      >                  <Time2/>
>      >                  <Time3/>
>      >              </DriveTimes>
>      >          </Person>
>      >          <Person>
>      >              <Name>Sally Smith</Name>
>      >              <Itinerary>
>      >                  <Start>LA</Start>
>      >                  <End>San Diego</End>
>      >              </Itinerary>
>      >              <DriveTimes>
>      >                  <Time1/>
>      >                  <Time2/>
>      >                  <Time3/>
>      >              </DriveTimes>
>      >          </Person>
>      >     </DrivingTrips>
>      >
>      >     Peter said:
>      >
>      >      > CSV is better at expressing row-and-column type data.
>      >
>      >     That might well be true, but it is possible to express
>      >     row-and-column concepts in XML. That is, the row-and-column
>     concept
>      >     in not outside the realm of concepts expressible by the XML
>     language.
>      >
>      >      > Various forms of database are better at expressing other
>     layouts
>      >     of atomic and relational data.
>      >
>      >     Again, that might well be true but the concept of a table is
>      >     expressible in XML.
>      >
>      >     Thank you Peter, Dimitre, and Gerrit but you haven't (yet)
>     convinced
>      >     me that there are concepts that are outside the realm of concepts
>      >     expressible using the language called XML.
>      >
>      >     A friend of mine is Chinese and today I asked her: "Are there
>      >     concepts that you can express in English that you cannot
>     express in
>      >     Chinese?" She responded, "Yes, there are concepts in English for
>      >     which there is no equivalent in Chinese." (The reverse is
>     also true
>      >     -- there are concepts that can be expressed in Chinese that
>     cannot
>      >     be expressed in English.)
>      >
>      >     Are there concepts in data language XYZ that cannot be
>     expressed in
>      >     the data language we call XML? What are the boundaries of the
>      >     language we call XML, in terms of concepts that can be expressed?
>      >     How does the XML language bound (limit) ones thinking about data?
>      >
>      >     /Roger
>      >
> 
>     _______________________________________________________________________
> 
>     XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>     to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>     spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
>     [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>     <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
>     Or unsubscribe: [email protected]
>     <mailto:[email protected]>
>     subscribe: [email protected]
>     <mailto:[email protected]>
>     List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>     <http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/>
>     List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>     <http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> Dimitre Novatchev
> ---------------------------------------
> Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
> ---------------------------------------
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
> -------------------------------------
> Never fight an inanimate object
> -------------------------------------
> To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the
> biggest mistake of all
> ------------------------------------
> Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.
> -------------------------------------
> You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what 
> you're doing is work or play
> -------------------------------------
> To achieve the impossible dream, try going to sleep.
> -------------------------------------
> Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
> -------------------------------------
> Typing monkeys will write all Shakespeare's works in 200yrs.Will they 
> write all patents, too? :)
> -------------------------------------
> Sanity is madness put to good use.
> -------------------------------------
> I finally figured out the only reason to be alive is to enjoy it.


_______________________________________________________________________

XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.

[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
Or unsubscribe: [email protected]
subscribe: [email protected]
List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php