Re: minimal YAML recommendations?

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Ingy dot Net <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi mofo,
>
> Oren, I always consider the 3 main additions from JSON to be:
>
>    - Types (Tags)
>    - References (Anchor / Aliases)
>    - Keys (can be any node, not simply strings)
>
> Also:
>
>    - Multiple documents per file/stream.
>
> Those are all model changes. The major syntax changes are:
>
>    - Block form (no {} [])
>    - Quoting styles (esp NoQuotes)
>    - Comments
>
> Yes, I was sloppy. I packed all the model changes together as
"deserialization control". You are of course correct.

> The YAML spec is a little over complicated but I started this wiki to
> discuss making YAML 2.0, simply be a reduction of the current YAML:
> https://github.com/yaml/YAML2/wiki#yaml-20-proposals
>
The main one is getting rid of the folded scalars. Merging it with the
quoted one is an interesting idea.

> There are quite a few documents on the net that people base modern
> implementations on taht should probably be removed. People end up all over
> the place on default schema (typing of unquoted strings). eg the string
> *Yes* being loaded as a boolean. http://yaml.org/type/bool.html is the
> culprit. Sometime after we published this we agreed that by default only
> (true false null) and unquoted numbers should be loaded as non-strings.
>
Yes. We got rid of all that in 1.2 but I guess the habit stayed...

> In YAML, any node can be loaded as almost any object. It all depends on
> the "schema" being used. We've been bad at making a best practices
> document. In general, people make implementations where the schema is at
> least agreed upon within the Load/Dump functions of that particular
> framework. In a better world:
>
>    - there would be a clear default schema
>
> I think the 1.2 spec provides a clear default schema...

>
>    - all implementations would adhere to it by default
>
> There's the rub.

>
>    - we would have a schema language
>
> Yes, that would be nice. There are JSON schema proposals, ideally we
should superset them.

>
>    - implementations would be schema aware and have the ability to
>    load/dump accordingly
>
> In the Perl world there exists a YAML::Tiny, which is a
> non-yaml-core-approved but heavily used and useful thing that is the spirit
> of this topic. It's doc has a mini spec:
> https://metacpan.org/pod/YAML::Tiny#YAML-TINY-SPECIFICATION
>
It would be nice to update it to be 1.2 compatible; that would allow it to
use bool, for example, and I think resolve some of the other issues.

> I started a parser generator project called Pegex that is easy to port to
> any language that has regex support. The primary idea is to make grammars
> that are really easy for people to read and maintain, and that create
> parsers in 20 languages at once. Here's a Pegex grammar for JSON and also
> JSONY (a JSON variant I helped create):
>
>    - https://github.com/ingydotnet/json-pgx/blob/master/json.pgx
>    - https://github.com/ingydotnet/jsony-pgx/blob/master/jsony.pgx
>
> These grammars have released implementations. My unfinished goal is to do
> a YAML grammar for Pegex, so at least we can have a set of implementations
> based off the exact same document.
>
 Not sure I follow the syntax there. The main PITA in the YAML spec is that
we can't use INDENT/UNDENT because of the way that '- ...' behaves.
Explicit keeping track of indentation then becomes an issue.

> If you'd like to chat more, find me in #yaml on irc.freenode.net
>
It has been dead for so long... What is your time zone these days? I'm in
Israel.

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