Re: Priests as freedom fighters

On Mar 8, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
(Message-ID:<[email protected]>):

> On Sat, 08 Mar 2025 08:14:22 -0800, Dr.Who<[email protected]>  wrote:
>
> > On Mar 8, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
> > (Message-ID:<[email protected]>):
> >
> > > On Fri, 07 Mar 2025 18:59:52 -0800, Dr.Who<[email protected]>  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mar 7, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
> > > > (Message-ID:<[email protected]>):
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 20:39:46 -0800, Dr.Who<[email protected]>  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mar 6, 2025, Steve Hayes wrote
> > > > > > (Message-ID:<[email protected]>):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 19:54:12 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov"<[email protected]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve Hayes,<news:[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:31:12 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Any authority is a good from God, it's established by God.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, but when it is corrupt, its corruption is not from God.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It's sinful to think one can know God's will/plan in full.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Holy Scripture says clearly any authority is established by
> > > > > > > > > > God, whereas a Christian's duty is to submit to authorities
> > > > > > > > > > rather than "fight" against what he or she may dislike.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > St Peter and St John seem to disagree with you:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Act 4:19-29 - But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether
> > > > > > > > > it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto
> > > > > > > > > God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen
> > > > > > > > > and heard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Act 5:28-29 - Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should
> > > > > > > > > not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with
> > > > > > > > > your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then
> > > > > > > > > Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God
> > > > > > > > > rather than men.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here "men" is generic, while "authorities" is more specific,
> > > > > > > > and since an authority is a gift from God, obendience to God
> > > > > > > > implies obendience to what is established by God.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When Enver Hoxha was the ruler of Albania he gave a similar order.
> > > > > > > Some did not obey it and continued to worship God. Were they thereby
> > > > > > > wrongly disobeying what God had established?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He banned places of worship such as mosques and churches. He did not ban
> > > > > > worshipping gods.
> > > > >
> > > > > Enver Hoxha banned *talking* about gods, just as those mentioned in
> > > > > the book of Acts of the Apostles did to St Peter and St John. Freedom
> > > > > of thought, yes. Freedom of speech, no.
> > > >
> > > > In the Book of Acts it was the religious leaders that ‘banned’ Peter
> > > > and
> > > > John. In what way was that similar to Enver? After all, false prophets are
> > > > false prophets.
> > >
> > > And your point is?
> >
> > At that time Rome was the ruler of that nation, not the High Priest and his
> > crowd.
> > The disciples were no longer under the Old Covenant of Law, and they, like
> > the Born Again Believer of today, have Jesus the Messiah as their High
> > Priest.
> >
> > You know, perhaps better than I, the governmental rule of that day and the
> > reasons why the Romans allowed the High priests to lead the Jew according to
> > their religious covenants. Even Jesus, before he wa sacrificed spoke out
> > against the religious leaders for their following the traditions of men and
> > placing them as equal to or above the law Covenant.
> >
> > According to the scriptures God sets up and or allows governing ruler
> > befitting to the needs of the people, and in the case of the Israelites,
> > every time they wandered away from God and would not repent, they were taken
> > over by others. When they returned to Him as their God and repented, he
> > restored them.
> >
> > The Romans ended up destroying that religious system as it was the source of
> > rebellion against Rome, instead of following the God they laid claim to.
> > Like
> > some of the ‘churches’ of today, their religion turned into the
> > worshipping of rites and rotes, as their hearts were not focused on God and
> > establishing a relationship with Him.
> >
> > Christians should have learned that lesson as the Israelites were an example
> > of what happens when we follow God, and or turn away to fulfill the desires
> > of the flesh, and even trying to mix the two lifestyles as one, as did the
> > Jew in the days of Jesus.
> >
> > As Oleg pointed out from scriptures, we need to fight the real enemy not the
> > fleshly perceived enemy.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Enver Hoxha desired to ban thought as well as freedom of speech. Declaring
> > > > that the religion of atheism was the theme of the day. Although he may not
> > > > have put it in those terms, yet atheism is a belief system.
> > >
> > > So he, like the Jewish leaders at the time of the Apostles, was a
> > > relgious leader.
> >
> > It might seem like that to you, but my point of him following a different
> > belief system is something that he while fighting against one, he did so
> > without realizing he had chosen just another belief system. Not that he was
> > purposely advocating a religion.
>
> I mat return to this later, but for now just this:
>
> You and Oleg Smirnoff appear to be arguing that because all authority
> is ultimately from God, we therefore ought to obey every command of
> every authority because authority (exousia in Greek) is from God and
> therefore good. So we must obey every authority in everything, no
> exceptions.
>
> But then there are exeptions, you don't have to obey Jewish
> authorities because of the new covenant. But the new covenant affects
> the Roman authorities too - Col 2:14-15.

Where in those verses do you see that it affected the Roman authorities? As I 
understand it, in the context in which it was written, it is speaking of 
spiritual things. Of which the Old Covenant is based, as well as the evil 
spiritual powers that be. IOW’s the word of God, stands, as it always has. 
While he delegated certain dominions to men, he did not relinquish His 
Authority on all everything else.

Jesus taught, render unto Caesar that which is Caesars.

As to there being no exceptions to the rule, Man has no authority over things 
spiritual other than that delegated by God. For the Born Again Believer they 
cannot deny allegiance to God or relinquish what they have given to God, to 
man, without turning their backs on God. There is much scripture on that 
topic.

Originally it seemed that you were in support of priests rebelling, or 
fighting a fleshly battle against rulers, even though the scriptures speak 
that our weapons are not carnal. For we war not against the things carnal, 
but spiritual. 2Cor 10:3

Here in the USA we have been warring, the believers, a spiritual battle over 
this country and its rulers. We were mildly aware of the ‘deep state’ 
that has been growing for years, and even affected the country when Ore Trump 
was in his first term. As yet we still do not know the full truth of that 
matter, even though much has been brought to the light. Even more is yet to 
come out, the full extent of it yet unknown. As it was it would have seemed 
as if only another American Revolutionary War would root it out, but the 
prayers of many in regards to this have resulted in the freedom of God to 
operate here, but the battle is not over, as that deep tap root has yet to be 
unearthed and we must remain vigilant.

Part, a full part of the freedom are spiritual. We are in the days of the 
latter rain that Joel prophesied about, and the freedom is necessary to 
spread the Gospel as well as the Glory of God around the world. There are 
revivals popping up even at this time, around the world with signs, wonders, 
healings, and many giving their lives to the Lord. Many also being 
killed/martyred for their belief in Jesus the Messiah. God is raining a 
standard against the influx of evil and all its attendants. In American 
Cowboy speech, this is the last roundup before the return of the Lord in the 
clouds for the purpose of the raising up of the ekklesia, the body of Christ 
both dead and alive, as it is the end of the "church age”. And when that 
happens, immediately suddenly, all hell will break out on earth and the time 
of the Great Tribulation will occur.

This I say, because we are in a great spiritual battle and Satan is 
intensifying his battle an trying his best to destroy Israel as his only 
chance of destroying and causing the failure of the Word of God, He is the 
forever loser. There is so much to say on this topic, and how his battle also 
has the USA in his sights as he tries to destroy America from within. Yes, 
America will be destroyed as a world power, but not while the ekklesia of God 
is alive here.

Anyhow, we are, bottom line, in a spiritual war, and have been. Which is why 
Paul and others relayed the word of God to us, to put on the full armor of 
God, to recognize our source is God, the same God who feeds the sparrows, and 
if so, how much more does he care for us who were created in His image?

>
>
> Then read the Martyrdom of Polycarp.
>
> <https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/study/module/polycarp/>
>
> Note his attitude to the Roman governor.
>
> Romnas 13 says we should be subject to the authoerities, not that we
> should *obey* theior every command.
>
> Polycarp is clearly subject to the Roman governor, and respects his
> authority, but he does not obey his every command.
>
> And that is exactly in line with the attitude of Peter and John, not
> obeying those who told them to stop speaking of Jesus.

Peter and John, as was stated at the fore, were responding to the spiritual 
leaders of Israel, not to the Roman Government. Surely you must be aware of 
the reasons for the deal under which the religious government of the Jews 
were allowed to operate as if it were under the Old Covenant? While the Jew 
tithed of their earnings and sacrificed, they still paid taxes to Ceasar.

In regards to Romans 13 there is nothing there that speaks about limitations 
regarding governmental rule, nor are there any inferences of it.

Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for 
conscience sake.

Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's 
ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; 
custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

A believer is to walk in the spirit. With the law of God written upon their 
heart. Not their mind. Their minds are to be renewed that we might have the 
mind of Christ Jesus. It is a ‘new way of life’, one that few teach on or 
about. Which is why the ekklesia has been so weak over the centuries as a 
whole.

When we recognize ourselves as children of the Most High, regardless of our 
age, we should as children put our hand in the hands of God as we walk life's 
journey. Put our hands In the hands of the one who stills the waters. Putting 
our full faith and confidence in our Heavenly Father, as a small child who 
believes their Dad can do anything for them.

It is too bad that we are not taught that, or that our faith is weakened by 
teachers who are carnal, immature, who themselves were taught no better. It 
deeply saddens me to know of all the years I wasted in the wallows.