Re: choosing a motherboard

On 3/30/2024 4:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:42:52 -0400, Paul <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3/29/2024 9:31 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> I was kinda attracted to this pre-built
>>> https://www.newegg.com/yeyian-ypi-pg49kfc-47y1n-phoenix-glass/p/N82E16883630052?Item=N82E16883630052
>>
>> Do any computer stores near you, do builds ?
> 
> I've been meaning to check that, but have been too lazy. It's a small
> town, only a couple of them. They don't advertise builds. And as yet I
> don't really KNOW what I want yet.
>>
>> Some, in the "services" section of their web site, have
>> prices such as
>>
>> Price for basic hardware assembly:          $100
>>
>> Price for basic hardware assembly + Win11:  $200
>>
>> These are prices over material cost of the components.
>>
>> Now, not all local computer stores are "reputable",
>> and this option only makes sense if you've done business
>> before with them, and they're "square dealers".
>>
>> Mine for example, gives 30 days return on a certain
>> number of hardware types. Some items are "manufacturer
>> warranty only" kind of thing. I don't care, as long
>> as they tell me in advance what their policy is.
>>
>> When a $60 HDD I bought, was DOA when I got it home,
>> there was no problem getting a swap for another one.
>> A lot less work than wrapping the stinker of a drive
>> up and shipping it back somewhere. That's my first DOA,
>> in over thirty hard drive purchases (and 100% of the
>> drives are supposed to be tested, too). The store no longer
>> sells big HDD, so the dinky drives are all they carry.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> In terms of core count, a 6C 12T is about as much as
>> basic Windows gets an advantage from. Some of the
>> 6C 12T processors, are cooled by straight aluminum coolers
>> (no copper, not even any heatpipes). The processors
>> are relatively low power, because the clock rate best
>> case might only be 4.5GHz turbo.
> 
> 6 cores 12 threads, thank you Google Search. I'm a bit nervous about
> liquid cooling anyway. 4GHz sounds like a lot to me anyway. I'm
> running a shade over 3GHz, I think. Though CPU-Z only shows core at a
> little over 2. Abit has a Guru and let's you play with overclocking. I
> blew the machine up multiple times and had to Restore before I finally
> gave up on it. The 3.2GHz figure comes from that Guru. 
>>
>> Maybe gaming uses 8 cores.
> 
> Solitaire is my game. Don't need a fancy graphics board either, but
> putting it on the cpu chip makes me nervous. i'd rather replace a
> board I think.
>>
>> Maybe compressing files with 7ZIP, uses (at most) 32 cores.
>>
>> When you get a monster chip, those will throttle if
>> they get too hot. Now you need a $120.00 air cooler
>> or (if you listen to their advice), water cooling
>> for the new CPU. Using a decent cooler, allows
>> the closed loop cooling system to work in a stable
>> manner. The BIOS will adjust the fan speed for you.
>>
>> When you do a build at a local computer store, they
>> should be able to print off various "levels" of
>> computers for you. An "email" PC. A "gamer" PC.
>> A "God" PC. Each with a different price. There is
>> some room for substitution, if you want a
>> different case. If you don't like their 850W PSU
>> choice, you may be able to select another brand.
>> The staff actually know which brands and units
>> have a high defect rate, and they might whisper
>> "don't take that one, we've got returns on those"
>> and they can help you pick a better one.
>>
>> Nobody is going to cool VCore properly for you,
>> so you have to plan ahead and buy a case with the
>> room for experimentation. For low-power 6C 12T
>> systems, this would normally not be an issue.
> 
> For years, I think back when my psu started going bad, I started
> leaving the left side cover off, I'd have to hunt to find it now.
> Replacement psu is 850watts. I learned here that they lose a bit of
> power each year and did NOT want to replace it again. 
> Do you think with a more powerful cpu and a few on board ssds, would a
> new build have to wear the side panel all the time or could I leave it
> open to my computer room. I find it a great convenience not to have to
> remove the damn panel all the time.
>>
>> The problem with "super-remote" hand-builds, is
>> the response you get when there is trouble. I've
>> talked to people who have been treated in an outrageous
>> manner before. It's not a pleasant topic.
>>
>> There's a few pictures here, of builds.
>>
>> https://www.microcenter.com/search/builds.aspx
> 
> Hot damn! That last is going to keep me entertained for months.
> Hopefully without hemmoraging my savings into NewEgg.
>>
>>   Paul

You can leave the side off if you want.

But you have to think a bit about how things work, and
what the box needs.

The big heatsink on the CPU, leaves a cloud of warm air
near its exhaust side. If the air is ingested by the big CPU
cooler, then the CPU does not get quite as much cooling.
There will only be a big cloud of hot air, if you run 7ZIP
compression on some files. Your cooling system should always
be ready to handle max load (like, when you are away from
your desk and it is still running).

One objective then, is to move the cloud out of the way.

A way of doing that, is mounting a fan in the slot area,
blowing upwards, to disturb the cloud and blow it out
of the box near the top. One problem with mounting a
fan in that orientation, is that is hard on the bearing.
I wore out the previous cloud-remover, and had to replace
it with... more fans. The side is still off the case.

The hard drives need cooling. When I use HDD, they have a
private fan of their very own. This is to avoid surprises.
The SATA SSD sitting next to me, has no cooling. With
enough effort, you can take the chill off it, but it's not
really a thermal villain.

If I had an NVMe loaded, I don't have a blow-down cooler
on the CPU, so it does not get too much air. If the sled
was a PCIe Rev5 one, at 14000 MB/sec, then I would have to
look at cooling it. The controller chip would likely get
hot on that, as it does not appear that PCIe Rev5 logic
blocks are cool running. (The motherboard can also have
a regenerator, between CPU and NVMe slot, because signal
loss on Rev5 is pretty high when traveling through FR4 PCB
material. At work, we used to fix this with exotic
materials like Teflon dielectric on select layers.)

I did start with a blow-down cooler, a Noctua NH-C14S,
but that was a flop, because it just didn't have the
legs for a 224W CPU. I got a DeepCool AK620 Zero Dark
to replace it (rather than yet another Noctua equivalent),
a cooler with two fans, but it blows sideways and doesn't
cool things like my NVMe sled. I wanted some surface cooling,
like the VCore heatsinks, but the airflow wasn't there
for that using the Noctua. Changing out the fan, I could
have pushed more air through it.

https://www.deepcool.com/products/Cooling/cpuaircoolers/AK620-ZERO-DARK-High-Performance-CPU-Cooler-1700-AM5/2022/16124.shtml

   [only some popup text says "260 watts" --  they're shy about anyone catching them]

I would prefer a theta-R rating for a cooler, rather
than these silly "watt ratings", because a watt rating
does not tell you what temperature the CPU hit
at 260W. Initially I did not believe a cooler this
small volumetrically, could cool that much power,
but it does seem to do a good job (224W at 60C or so).
At 260W, the CPU temperature would be getting up there,
but still not throttling. The Noctua C14S was only
about a 150W or so cooler, and it just wasn't quite
enough.

The exhaust fan on your case, could easily remove the
cloud, with out resorting to a "blow-upwards" fan as
a solution. The case I'm using, is from the year 2000, and
has a removable tray. And I like doing builds and just
flipping them into place with the tray... regardless
of how poor the cooling holes on the case are. If
I was using one of my Antec Sonata cases, those have
good sized holes on the back for exhaust. Your builder
would fit an exhaust fan, pretty well out of force of habit.

Since you don't need graphics at the moment, you can use the
integrated graphics. The motherboard should have one HDMI
and one DP connector hole.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark.html

   https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/236773/intel-core-i9-processor-14900k-36m-cache-up-to-6-00-ghz.html

       LGA1700   Approx $540 or so     No cooler (because... need monster cooler)

       8C 16T + 16e    (32 threads total, Ecores are slightly slower, Pcores are for the big turbo)

       Processor Base Power 125 W
       Maximum Turbo Power  253 W

       Performance-core Base Frequency      3.2 GHz
       Performance-core Max Turbo Frequency 5.6 GHz

       36 MB Intel Smart Cache

       Intel UHD Graphics 770   (32 EU)

   https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/236788/intel-core-i5-processor-14400-20m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz.html

       LGA1700   Approx $230 or so     Boxed Cooler = "Intel Laminar RM1 included"   Meant to cool the 65W load

       6C 12T + 4e    (16 threads total, Ecores are slightly slower, Pcores are for the big turbo)

       Processor Base Power  65 W
       Maximum Turbo Power  148 W  (barely in range of C14S as a cooler)

       Performance-core Base Frequency      2.5 GHz
       Performance-core Max Turbo Frequency 4.7 GHz  (does not use the same turbo standard, still turbos a bit)

       20 MB Intel Smart Cache (likely to be the L3)

       Intel UHD Graphics 730   (24 EU)   G3D Mark = 1857 G2D Mark = 484

That is to allow you to compare a "snorting fire-breathing" one, to a cheaper one.

This AMD one (AM5 socket) has more L3 on it. This is actually an oddball CPU.
Skybuck has one of these.

https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-9-7950x3d-ryzen-9-7000-series/p/N82E16819113791
https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-7950x3d

       AM5  Approx $570 or so   No cooler (because... need good cooler)

       16C 32T

       Processor Base Power 120 W
       Maximum Turbo Power  162 W   (the version without the extra L3, runs at higher power)
                                    (TjMax 89C so it does need the monster cooler, like the 260W cooler)
                                    (The L3 layered on top, screws up lots of desirable aspects, CPU must be cooler)

       Performance-core Base Frequency      4.2 GHz
       Performance-core Max Turbo Frequency 5.7 GHz  <=== should do this on one core, may be sub-5 on all cores)

       128MB L3  (uses a separate add-on L3 silicon die to double the cache)

       AMD graphics 2-core RDNA (same on all chips)      G3D Mark = 1624  G2D Mark = 544
       Name = AMD Radeon Graphics  (7950X, comparison ==>           4451             607
       Shows that built-in GPU was "cranked back" to save on heat.
       The built-in graphics on the family, can boast better numbers.
       https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Ryzen+9+7950X+16-Core&id=4652

I generally recommend around one month of "research activities" when
buying a "new hot thing". You could build a machine with no video
card, as a starting point if you want. Just be careful, as some CPU
offerings, don't actually have the GPU die inside the multi-die package!

   Paul