Re: Betrayel

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 12:11:38 +0100, one <[email protected]> wrote:

> slider wrote:
>> one wrote:
>>
>>> When winners exist, losers exist
>>> which sounds kinda like a game.
>>
>> ### - debating isn't a game,
>
> If, for you, it isn't or
> by definition it isn't, then,
> it might be semantics or
> simply how you see.
>
> The debate that is a debate
> might be great or simply for fun, imo.

### - that movie is based on a true story, it actually happened, a lowly  
black college beat white harvard university in a debate about what the  
definition of morality is and is not, that regardless of everything being  
against them in a white man's world the higher principles won the day and  
the so-called white version of morality lost... much of this later  
contributing to the civil rights movement that argues everyone is  
deserving of good/fair treatment and not just a privileged few...

iow: this is an example of how human knowledge advances on a daily basis  
in the daily waking world, and it applies to both nations and to  
individuals...




>> it's an intelligent way of getting at the
>> truth of an issue, a win-win scenario for both sides because everyone
>> comes out the better for it even if they lose the debate,
>
> To surrender to win occurs at times.
>
> To let go and allow to be. A question
> emerges regarding higher powers or a
> Higher Power if there is a singularity.

### - on the human stage just letting things be results in the strong  
ruling the weak and the law of 'fist' (as in might is right etc) ruling  
the world, that being exactly what the nazi's believed in... and if the  
world hadn't gotten together and opposed them we'd all be speaking german  
now and going to military schools!

e.g., you mention the tao fairly often as being a narrative you like/are  
attracted to? (nada wrong with that) but under the nazis anything like  
that would have been banned and eventually eradicated

that struggle is still continuing btw...






>> the main thing
>> is the argument has evolved some, and even if nothing definitive is
>> arrived at, at least one argument (the losing one) has been dismissed  
>> from
>> the equation no matter how much appeal (emotional or otherwise) it might
>> have previously had... and overall that's an advance see?
>
> Given various presumptions, yes.
> Science and mathematics may use such a way.
>
> Psychology might depend more on a society
> in terms of what is defined as well or ill.
>
> Debates about what is right and/or wrong
> might change over time, reverse, modified, etc.

### - doesn't matter what culture you come from, some things are universal  
like don't do any harm, or don't be a low life...




>> both sides get a
>> win regardless of the outcome because knowledge has been advanced a
>> fraction...
>
> Seeing as how you appear to see debate happening,
> thus far, in this thread, what new knowedge have you seen?

### - not much, yet (smile...) there's a certain inertia that has to be  
overcome/resisted first as people are sticklers for what they know, or  
think/believe they know, so being opened minded has to come first before  
anything new can enter in (ref. old zen story about needing to first empty  
one's cup)

i mean, i look around here and everyone's cups are already filled to  
overflowing, there's no room for anything more or different, people don't  
like/resent anything 'different', they like to feel that they've gots it  
all nailed down already...




>> there's a very nice movie about it that explains the above in detail
>>
>> just cut through all the hollywood-esq bs added to sell movies, and at  
>> the
>> heart of it there's human awareness, discipline & advancement...
>>
>> https://ok.ru/video/2387686132251
>
> Website has something about cookies being required.
>
>> (an important movie)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Debaters
>
> No idea how that relates to WILD nor Christ
> or cosmic consciousness, mental illness, healing
> the world or people who live on a surface.
>
> Some people see the world as in trouble,
> the end is near, paranoia may be their mode.
> Fear might be a driving energy for them.

### - the tibetan buddhists have a nice story/myth they circulate, it's  
about when a 3rd of the world has actually 'reached' enlightenment, and  
another 3rd is actually on a genuine road 'to' enlightenment, then  
something wonderful will occur and the last 3rd - the hardest/most  
difficult of all to enlighten: all the pigs & fishes heh - will be somehow  
miraculously drawn-up into it via a kind of siphon-effect, and then the  
whole world will be enlightened! (nice story huh)






> As for Taoism seeing
> as how that's a group in to which this cross-
> posted thread continues and I post from,
> a technique is to not try to win, grow
> nor to change the world.
>
> The world is said to be sacred.
> Trying to change it is not advised.

### - are you suggesting/saying that the tibetan buddhists are in error  
working to enlighten the whole world? that it's not advisable?? or does  
that perhaps only apply to those who don't really know what they're doing,  
an injunction as such to those people to wait until they 'do' know what  
they're doing!

it's true, however, that there's some who don't get involved for whatever  
reasons of their own, be it religious or otherwise they remain  
indifferent/don't take students for example... others, however, take a  
more active hand, trying to add to the quota of already enlightened and/or  
setting students on a road that leads to it...




> Lots of people see what is wrong.
> They could be called the trouble seers.

### - they could even be policemen kinda thing, an alternate 'kind' of  
police heh, arresting muggers and stuff and even putting some of them in  
jail on occasion ;)





> Looking for problems they might be views
> as being the trouble makers.

### - or conversely: peace-keepers/makers ;)




> Looking at sides can be a potential view,
> toward a form of unity consciousness
> as compared to forms of duality
> like what occurs in a debate.

### - now we're cooking :)



> Some people who are diagnosed with mental
> phenomena might be able to heal others
> and yet not be able to quite fit with
> various cultures naturally.

### - iow: don't look for the spiritually advanced among ordinary people,  
such types are more usually outcasts, tramps, even mentally ill... they  
never quite 'fit-in', they're outsiders looking in...



> Theirs could be a difficult Road, Way, Tao.

### - one accepts that the life of a policemen is never an easy one...

after all, they're forced every day to always see both sides of every coin  
and debate/decide something, it's their work/job ;)




> Some Taoists might be reclusive, like shamans
> except different. To find a Tao, a Way, that works
> for a so-called individual may take time for
> time beings tend to be normal.

### - anyone can sit on the fence and do nada (lol people spend 'years'  
learning to do nada), it takes a certain kind of courage, however, to come  
back and work in the world, to bring their enlightenment 'to' the world  
instead of maybe just keeping it all to themselves?

i like the bodhisattva story... i mean, here was a dude who'd reached  
enlightenment! actually made it all the way! and he could have presumably  
just gone-off doing all the incredible things enlightened people can  
probably do with such gifts... his problem was that he clearly saw that  
humanity had nothing, nada, were spiritually poverty stricken with no hope  
of ever finding anything, zip! and that kinda hurt him ya see?

to him it was unthinkable that he could just piss-off to go-live an  
exalted life of riley while that poor bunch of bastards have nothing  
whatsoever, and in all likelihood never will...

he had compassion for them, see? or maybe he was just an idiot hah!

either way, he decided to stay with them, and then at least they had 'him'  
then didn't they!

perforce they loved & revered him for that, of course they did, but he  
just *couldn't* abandon them, ya know?

only a great being could ever do something like that!