Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP 4.0.0Release packaged

Manuel Lemos wrote:
> Hello Christian,
> On 21-May-00 19:50:14, you wrote:
> >> Picture this situation some time soon in a IT department next to you:
> >> Joe Webby, a paid Web developer rushes into his boss office:
> >[...]
> >In my opinion, Joe has the IQ of a handful of beer nuts, but that's a
> I know, but you'd be surprised by how many Joe Webby's you will find doing
> Web development these days!  :-)

Well, idiots running to 1.0 features deserve what they get, regardless of
a company's "reputation". New features always have problems.

> >different story. Here's another story: I introduced PHP in a company I work
> >for around one year ago. Today, the company uses PHP for several different
> >projects, and prefers it over ASP and Perl. However PHP was almost banned,
> >as on the first project we had to access a Database via ODBC, since that was
> >really poorly documented. "Arrogance towards Windows users" was one of the
> >nicer terms I encountered from colleagues scanning the documentation. The
> Thanks for your testemony.  From the response I was getting here, it sounded
> like I was bringing up irrelevant problems with PHP acceptance that didn't
> matter to address.

No, but you aren't doing anything to _fix_ the problem. You can go whine
on the Lasso lists, or the ASP lists, about "how such and such doesn't work"
and how "you can't sell it", but if you take a look at what people will actually
_buy_ (drumbeat, anyone?), you discover that most companies don't give a hoot
about the technology, or the features, or the code maturity. They want to
use something that will do what they want. Of all of their options, all of
the software has crappy documentation, bugs galore (NT2K has over 1,000 known
bugs, and yet people still buy it). So the question is finding the best fit
of software, not the one that always works exactly the way you want it to...
Because no such software exists, and never has existed.

So figure out how to help fix it. A corny american saying: "If you're not
part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

> >problem was solved quite quickly after posting to the mailing list, but the
> >scepticism remained. Another project refused to continue working after
> >upgrading from 3.0.x to 3.0.y (I think that was around 3.0.12). The reason:
> >the infamous mail()-bug; if you omit the last, optional parameter for
> >mail(), mail() will not work on Win32 any longer. Thank god I very quickly
> >found the problem (and the solution) in the PHP online bug system, but it is
> >still not fixed in 3.0.16, and not documented.
> Yes, I have been through that several times.

Welcome to software development? Perhaps you should find another line of work
if you want it to always be right the first few times. Of the closed source
products out there, how many do not have bug-fix versions, and only release
major feature upgrades? NONE. Why should open source be different? Is your own
code perfect for six months? Is it ever perfect? Mine isn't.

> You report a bug, but no
> developer likes the face of the report or yours, the report will hang on
> the database for a very long time.

Again, welcome to software development. If you hang out for a while, you may learn
that this is just the way it is. You're welcome to start a company where you hand
hold every user through their bugs, rewrite all of your code to fix a bug that
only appears one out of a million times, where you directly connect all your
programmers to people who have attitudes _just like yours_ about their problems,
to be cajoled, insulted, and harassed because of personal disagreements.

You might learn a thing or two... Oh wait, you _DO_ develop software. While we're
on the subject....(see below)

> You can't complain because you are
> relying on good will, but if you bother to remind that there is a
> outstanding bug there, you are accused of demanding fixes.

Well, what's wrong with your website? I _still_ havn't gotten a good download
of metabase because the damn thing won't resend my password, (which I didn't
get to choose, which screwed up my login). I can't read the metabase documentation
because your website is so screwed up that the documentation can't be found
without your broken user/pass being fixed. I can't get reliable information,
I can't get a decent download, I send you the information to get it fixed,
and YOU IGNORED IT. Why can't you act like the developer you want PHP to
be? Why can't you provide reliable support? Why don't you fix these problems?
I was considering your software, but your treatment was so unprofessional
that I cannot, in good faith, even consider using it. I can't get to the
software to even _try_ it, and you have ignored my pleas. How can anybody
be expected to use it if it is so unreliable to get support?

So, Manuel, how does it feel? I tried to be patient with you, because I thought
you'd be different, after copping the attitude about support on the lists
I see you on? You have the exact same problems you accuse them of having.

> >What really saddens me however is the reaction on the list. If Manuel tries
> >to point out what could hinder PHP from conquering the world, please don't
> >blame him for that. I know a lot of people that associate with PHP a certain
> >kind of arrogance of the supporters. Most of those people are Windows users,
> >so they are used to suffering with their OS :-)

I'm a die-hard, FSF, open-source, zealot. I know they're (PHP devel) arrogant,
it doesn't bother me a lot. They have earned their rights to remain silent, to
focus on code, and not focus on user hand-holding. This is common in the
software industry.... even open source. If you follow Linus's code arbitration
for the kernel, he comes off as arrogant as well. To effectively make decisions,
to determine the future of software, confidance and a sense of higher authority
are required. That's something that all good architects, all good artists, have
in common. In Manuel's case, its rather ironic, too, which just adds to the
humour (hello, pot? This is kettle. You're black!)

> > However I agree with them on
> >some point. The reaction to criticism may be justified (hey, if I was one of
> >the core people behind PHP, I'd kill everybody who'd say just one word
> >against it), but from a marketing point of view, it's sub-optimal. I think
> If you only half of the people that contests my message would reckon that,
> I would be happier and wouldn't feel that I have been talking to the walls.

You know what? It is the same problem in most software development. It is
hard to keep everyone happy, and it is often an issue of trying to find
the company who is the least offensive, or the least arrogant, or has
the most people placating the users. No mailing list I have ever been on
is without its "doubting thomas" (a christian metaphor for the person
who always supects, always complains, always fears the worst). I think
the dissent is good, but with it comes personal animosity, just because
it feel bad to have your work unappreciated. Manuel probably did not
like the way I criticized him above, even though I do respect his opinions
and work.

> Anyway, I sense some progress. You know what, this is happening to me again,
> but while I present my justified criticisms and improvement suggestions, I
> get a lot of personal mail of people that understand the importance what I
> am saying and offer their support.

Well, you've had _mine_... you write a lot, and different people support
different things. I want a unified database abstraction layer, but I think
the idea of making PHP more like closed source is totally wrong. Closed
source usually has worse manuals, worse documentation, than open source. It
takes longer to get bug fixes, because they are tied up in Quality
Assurance for two months, not two weeks.... in your criticisms, you often
bring out support from different people, depending on their concerns.

> >everybody here respects the endless, unpaid hours of work that were put into
> >PHP and into php.net

Go team, go!

> >, but if there's no bug-free software, there's also no
> >error-free concept, and (constructive) suggestions to amend that should be
> >given a forum and should be discussed without bias.
> Right.  Too bad that some people don't value constructive criticism.

It has to be constructive. What was constuctive in what I said?
a) Don't force registration on your website.
b) Answer registration problems quickly.

I also said it in a way that may anger or upset you. It's hard to read
criticism, so problems often become obscured by emotions.

So, the clock is ticking. How fast will you fix _my_ problem, before I complain
again to public lists? :-)

> In
> the real world people are paid to judge and criticise.  Many of those are
> called consultants. I guess I get some hostile feedback to my criticisms
> because I am not charging for it. Maybe I should. :-)

You should. It pays well. You also have to learn more about why PHP is, quite
frankly, one of the best options available. And then you get paid to *prove*
it, and they may pay you to tell them why ASP is a broken piece of crap. It's
a lot of fun. :-)

-Ron

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