Re: [PHP4BETA] Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP 4.0.0Release packaged

> >Well, what's wrong with your website? I _still_ havn't gotten a good download
> >of metabase because the damn thing won't resend my password, (which I didn't
> >get to choose, which screwed up my login). I can't read the metabase
> Passwords are sent automatically by e-mail. Has it crossed your mind that
> your server may be bouncing messages to you sent by my site?

Yup. If your messages are poorly formed, it may set off spam filters....

> Since I can't get through to you over, I hope the list excuse me for using
> this message to inform that there is a recent account with your name and
> address that says that your password is the one that was sent in the
> e-mail.

ARGGH! I never got a good password to check this with! :-)

> There is another older account with a name similar to yours that says that
> the password was reset by the system on 2000-05-19.  Either way, if you
> didn't get a password, it's certainly an e-mail problem that transcends the
> best of my efforts.

Shall I just keep re-registering? Is your site SPAM filtered on any of
the blacklists?

> >documentation because your website is so screwed up that the documentation
> >can't be found without your broken user/pass being fixed. I can't get
> That's not broken, that's meant to be for justified reasons.
> >reliable information, I can't get a decent download, I send you the
> >information to get it fixed, and YOU IGNORED IT. Why can't you act like the 
> I don't recall having received any message in those terms.  When have you
> sent it?

About three weeks ago, I think.

> I never denied support.  You are jumping to conclusions without
> investigating exactly what may be failing.

Conclusions, yup. Not neccesarrily the right ones.

> I even try ask those people to show what they feel in
> public, but I understand that they just don't feel like being beat up as
> well like I am having to put up.

Well, you see mine. :-)

> >Well, you've had _mine_... you write a lot, and different people support
> >different things. I want a unified database abstraction layer, but I think
> >the idea of making PHP more like closed source is totally wrong. Closed
> Never meant it that way.

Well, quality standards more like closed source? Many quality standards
cause problems in software projects. They make the product later, less
performant, more marginalized.

> > open source usually has worse manuals,

The manuals only document the known good code. Which often isn't as much
as the program can do....

> > worse documentation,

"Approved" documentation forgets to mention bugs. :-)

> > than open source. It
> >takes longer to get bug fixes, because they are tied up in Quality
> >Assurance for two months, not two weeks.... 

This is obvious.

Here are some other problems to consider:
Freezing code means that bugs are not fixed, but _frozen_. Most final
releases ship with frozen bugs for this reason, it's too late to unfreeze,
change, and start up the freeze periods again.

> >in your criticisms, you often
> >bring out support from different people, depending on their concerns. 
> So, you feel I am wrong proposing measures to assure better software
> quality in PHP?

I think that quality measures can make a product better, and also worse.
it takes careful thinking and planning to make it better, it takes
arguments, and disagreements, to come to a good solution to make a
product better and still let it ship.

> >> >everybody here respects the endless, unpaid hours of work that were put
> >> >into PHP and into php.net
> >Go team, go!
> There it is the noisy crowd cheering for Golias! :-)

I cheer for Goliath _and_ David. I would say you are a Goliath... the PHP
team knows you, and you're certainly not meek and quiet like David. :-)

> >It has to be constructive. What was constuctive in what I said?
> >a) Don't force registration on your website.
> If only you knew that is one vital thing that lead to the site success.
> Let me explain, people subscribe to be able to download.  All downloads are
> accounted rigourously.  With those figures I can compute top charts that
> are displayed in the site.

You can do this *without* requiring a username and password to be mailed.

> Conclusion, since I added the top charts page the number uploaded classes
> boosted.  Without requiring people to register it would be possible to
> compute accurate and credible charts.

But less people will download. You said yourself that you are getting mail
bounces. Do you read why they are bouncing?

> >> In
> >> the real world people are paid to judge and criticise.  Many of those are
> >> called consultants. I guess I get some hostile feedback to my criticisms
> >> because I am not charging for it. Maybe I should. :-)
> >You should. It pays well....
> Believe me that I tried.  I worked for ISP that develops web sites for
> clients. They use ASP because that's all that they know. They fear that they
> may get lost in the change.  They know ASP/MSSQL/IIS/NT works for them.  They
> don't know that for PHP.  PHP is not advertised in the real world.

I have one client who _refuses_ to use ASP, because PHP is what they know.
It's not about PHP, or ASP, it's about people fearing changes.

> Take a look at Web development magazines and you see that the difference
> articles on ASP are more or less about 10 to 1 on PHP.

Yes, it takes as much as ten times the work. :-) 

> The low presence of
> PHP in the media that many Web development companies use to get informed
> make them believe that ASP is what everybody is using.

Very true. So shout it from the mountaintops! Don't mask your pages in .html,
proudly display .php, .php3, .phpeatsASPforbreakfast!

> They only know
> what they see in the media.  It's pointless to laugh at their ignorance
> because this lack of media recognition affects all of us big time.

So we have to make it.

> To summarize, I tried to be helpful and bring up this feedback from the
> real world.  It's a shame how some people don't bother to stop and try to
> understand what I am saying instead of just killing the messanger!  :-(

It's not just the messenger, Manuel, it's how the messenger is delivering
the message. 

-Bop