Re: [RFC] Adding export-symbols to specification

Hi Rob, David,

The export-symbols topic is a blocking point on my side to provide the
support for addon board hot-plugged on connector [0].

Can you provide some feedback on this topic in order for us (me and Ayush)
to move forward.

Best regards,
Hervé

[0]: https://lore.kernel.org/all/[email protected]/


On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 10:32:04 +0100
Herve Codina <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Ayush,
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 01:53:54 +0530
> Ayush Singh <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 2/5/25 00:51, Herve Codina wrote:
> >   
> > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 22:54:52 +0530
> > > Ayush Singh <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >    
> > >>> You have perfectly summarized the export-symbols goal and the benefit of
> > >>> this new feature.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am waiting for feedback from other people. I hope we will move forward
> > >>> on this topic and unblock several users (me included) stuck on this real
> > >>> issue.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks a lot!
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>> Hervé    
> > >> While working on a Patch series to the specification itself, I realized
> > >> that I was missing some edge cases, so wanted to discuss those:
> > >>
> > >> # Scope
> > >>
> > >> Should export-symbols only be used to resolve the properties in parent,
> > >> or should all other children (and their decedents) use the
> > >> `export-symbols` for resolving phandles and path references?
> > >>
> > >> For example, should the following work:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> parent {
> > >>
> > >>     sibling {
> > >>
> > >>         led = <&gpio 0 GPIO_ACTIVE_HIGH>
> > >>
> > >>     };
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     export-symbols {
> > >>
> > >>         gpio = <&my_gpio1>;
> > >>
> > >>     };
> > >>
> > >> };
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> This would also mean that bottoms up lookup needs to take place for all
> > >> `export-symbols` that might be present in path to root, before using top
> > >> level `__symbols__` or `/aliases`.    
> > > I restricted the use of export-symbols node when an overlay is applied 
> > > at a node
> > > which contains an export-symbols sub-node.
> > >
> > > In your example, If you apply an overlay at parent node, your 
> > > export-symbols
> > > is used but if you apply an overlay at sibling node, your 
> > > export-symbols is
> > > not used.
> > >
> > > Of course if your overlay applied at parent node looks like the following:
> > >
> > > __overlay__ {
> > > sibling {
> > > prop = <&gpio>;
> > > };
> > > };
> > >
> > > &gpio will be resolved using your export-symbols. __overlay__ is applied
> > > at parent -> visible in the overlay.
> > >
> > > If the base device-tree looks like this:
> > > parent {
> > > sibling {
> > > export-symbols {
> > > gpio = <&my_gpio1>;
> > > };
> > > };
> > > };
> > >
> > > The same overlay applied at parent will failed.
> > > Indeed, no export-symbols is available at parent node and so the
> > > gpio symbols used by the overlay will not be resolved even
> > > if an export-symbols exists in the sibling node.
> > > To see this export-symbols from the overlay, the overlay has to be applied
> > > at sibling node and not parent node.    
> > 
> > Yes, but adding export-symbols to specification would mean defining the 
> > behavior in base devicetree as well.
> > 
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > \ {
> > 
> >      parent {
> > 
> >          export-symbols {
> > 
> >              gpio = <&main_gpio0>;
> > 
> >          };
> > 
> >      };
> > 
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > &parent {
> > 
> >      led = <&gpio 0 GPIO_ACTIVE_HIGH>
> > 
> > };
> > 
> > ```
> >   
> 
> In this example, we can consider that 'led = <&gpio 0 GPIO_ACTIVE_HIGH>' is
> applied to the parent node (&parent).
> 
> Suppose:
>  \ {
>       node-one {
> 	  export-symbols {
> 		gpio = <&main_gpio0>;
>           };
>  
> 	  node-two {
>           	export-symbols {
>               		gpio = <&main_gpio1>;
>           	};
> 	  };
>       };
>  };
> 
> &node-one {  <--- Applied to node-one
> 	my-gpio = <&gpio>;   <--- &main_gpio0 from node-one.export-symbols
> };
> 
> &node-one { <--- Applied to node-one
> 	node-two {
> 		my-gpio = <&gpio>;   <--- &main_gpio0 from node-one.export-symbols
> 	};
> };
> 
> &node-two { <--- Applied to node-two
> 	my-gpio = <&gpio>;   <--- &main_gpio1 from node-two.export-symbols
> };
> 
> Suppose this other base DT
> \ {
> 	node-one {
> 		export-symbols {
> 			gpio = <&main_gpio0>;
> 		};
> 		my-gpio = <&gpio>;  <--- Not allowed as there is no notion of
> 				         fragment applied. my-gpio was not
> 					 "applied" but already present in the
> 					 node description
> 	};
>  };
> 
> Two questions:
> - Does it make sense ?
> - Is it easily implementable ?
> 
> > 
> > It might not make sense to add it to devicetree specification if the 
> > node does not function in normal devicetree context.
> >   
> > >>
> > >> # Export symbols phandles
> > >>
> > >> Can export symbols reference each other? For example is the following 
> > >> valid:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> parent {
> > >>
> > >>     export-symbols {
> > >>
> > >>         shadow_gpio = <&my_gpio1>;
> > >>
> > >>         gpio = <&shadow_gpio>;
> > >>
> > >>     };
> > >>
> > >> };    
> > > For sure, not planned.
> > >
> > > Also, maybe I missed something but I am not sure you can have a
> > > phandle referencing a property.
> > >
> > > In your example, shadow_gpio is a property, even if we add a label
> > > to this property i.e.
> > > label_shadow_gpio: shadow_gpio = <&my_gpio1>;
> > >
> > > How can we set:
> > > gpio = <&label_shadow_gpio>;    
> > 
> > Well, technically, all phandles actually just reference a property since 
> > they are resolved using the properties defined in `__symbols__` node or 
> > `/aliases`. So it is pretty simple to add the functionality described above.  
> 
> I think in __symbols__ we have labels not phandles.
> At runtime, in the end, a phandles are numbers.
> 
>   some-node {
> 	phandle = <0x12>;
>   };
> 
>   other-node {
> 	ref-to-some-node = <0x12>; <--- It references a node which has phandle == 0x12
>   };
> 
> >   
> > > Best regards,
> > > Hervé
> > >    
> > 
> > 
> > I have been thinking about some alternative approaches as well, and 
> > something that sounds nice is `/ephimeral-symbols`. Let me explain what 
> > I mean:
> > 
> > `/ephemeral-symbols` can be a global node whose properties have a single 
> > phandle as value. For example:
> > 
> > 
> > / {
> >      ephemeral-symbols {
> >        connector1 = <&connector1>;
> >        gpio = <&my_gpio1>;
> >      };
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > This node will take precedence over `__symbols__` and will be used for 
> > symbol resolution. However, it will never be present in the compiled 
> > devicetree blob.
> > 
> > In case of base devicetree, it can be used to generate symbols for 
> > specific nodes:
> > 
> > 
> > / {
> >      connector1 {
> >          prop = "1";
> >      };
> > 
> >      ephemeral-symbols {
> >          connector1 = <&connector1>;
> >      };
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > Will compile to:
> > 
> > 
> > / {
> > 
> >      connector1 {
> >          prop = "1";
> >      };
> > 
> >      __symbols__ {
> >          connector1 = "/connector1";
> >      };
> > 
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > In case of addon board overlay setup, it can be used in a similar way to 
> > the __symbols__ proposal by Andrew [0].
> > 
> > 
> > So you have the base devicetree:
> > 
> > 
> > / {
> > 
> >      connector1 {
> >      };
> > 
> >      connector2 {
> >      };
> > 
> >      ephemeral-symbols {
> >          connector1 = <&connector1>;
> >      };
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > adapter overlay:
> > 
> > 
> > /dts-v1/;
> > /plugin/;
> > 
> > &{/} {
> >      ephemeral-symbols {
> >          ABC_CONNECTOR = <&connector1>;
> >      };
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > addon board overlay:
> > 
> > 
> > /dts-v1/;
> > /plugin/;
> > 
> > 
> > &ABC_CONNECTOR {
> > 
> >      prop = "val";
> > 
> > };
> > 
> > 
> > Which will end up resolving to:
> > 
> > 
> > / {
> > 
> >      connector1 {
> >          prop = "val";
> >      };
> > 
> >      connector2 {
> >      };
> > 
> >      __symbols__ {
> >          connector1 = "/connector1";
> >          connector2 = "/connector2";
> >      };
> > 
> > };  
> 
> You need 2 overlays and you need to have both overlay applied in an atomic
> way.
> 
> adapter-connector1.dtso then addon.dtso
> 
> You should avoid this kind of non atomic flow:
>   adapter-connector1.dtso
>   adapter-connector2.dtso  <--- ABC_CONNECTOR changed
>   addon.dtso <--- ABC_CONNECTOR from adapter-connector2.dtso: Ok
>   addon.dtso <-- ABC_CONNECTOR is no more from adapter-connector1.dtso
> 
> I really wanted to avoid this extra complexity (runtime and maintenance)
> involving two overlays.
> 
> With epheral-symbols, you need to use ABC_CONNECTOR as a reference and not
> a phandle. I mean:
> in the overlay:
>   &ABC_CONNECTOR {   <--- Use a reference: ok
>       some-thing;
>   };
> 
>   node {
>     phandle-to-connector = <&ABC_CONNECTOR>; <--- Use as phandle: ko
>   };
> 
> To use a phandle, you need to have a phandle = <0x??> property set in the node
> the phandle is pointing to. In your base dt:
> > / {
> > 
> >      connector1 {
> >      };
> > 
> >      connector2 {
> >      };
> > 
> >      ephemeral-symbols {
> >          connector1 = <&connector1>;
> >      };
> > };  
> 
> connector2 will not have its phandle property set unless you
>   - set a label and use that label in a phandle reference in your base DT.
> or
>   - set a label and compile with -@ flag
> 
> On my use case, my connector node is not referenced by a phandle in my
> base DT, except export-symbols.
> I really don't need and don't want to export all possible symbols of my
> base DT (I don't use -@ option).
> 
> An other rule we try to follow on our side (me and Luca) is:
> Overlays are supposed to add or remove descriptions of new or removed
> hardwares and so overlays add or remove nodes and not properties in
> existing node (which means modify existing hardware).
> 
> > 
> > 
> > It does seem like it avoids the pitfalls of [0] (no global __symbols__ 
> > polluting and chaining is fine since we do not need to resize devicetree 
> > to resolve path references). But it might have some other flaws I am 
> > missing right now.  
> 
> I don't think we pollute the global __symbols__ with export-symbols
> solution :)
> 
> Related to implementation details (resizing devicetree), my turn :)
> 
> At runtime the implementation constraint is that adding a property in an
> already existing node leads to a memory leak and so adding connector2 in
> __symbols__ node at runtime is an issue.
> 
> Best regards,
> Hervé



-- 
Hervé Codina, Bootlin
Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
https://bootlin.com