Re: Is it Befitting for a Christian to be a Nudist?

All People should be and live naked, we are born so and then it should be 
so. Long live the naked people.

"Anna" <[email protected]> skrev i en meddelelse 
news:8d4664a8-8bfd-4cd6-a2cd-814097681a58@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
A Christian blogger asks - is it befitting for a Christian to be a
nudist?

Comments can be posted at the blogger's blog as well as here.

http://www.boomerinthepew.com/2008/12/is-it-befitting-for-a-christian-to-be-a-nudist.html

http://tinyurl.com/8bopm6

Is it Befitting for a Christian to be a Nudist?

This is my 9th post, in an on-line study group reading of C.S. Lewis'
"Mere Christianity".  Here is the landing page that contains all my
posts.

I find our culture peculiar, in that we refuse to talk about things of
a sexual nature, yet the inhabitants of our culture obviously indulge,
in a closet sort of way, in those things which they refuse to talk
about openly.

This sends very confusing messages to our children.  I can certainly
attest that, in my childhood, sexuality was never, ever talked about.

I come to this subject because sexual morality is the next subject in
C.S. Lewis', "Mere Christianity".  In the opening paragraphs, he first
touches on the subject of modesty, propriety, and decency, as opposed
to chastity.

I intend to cover chastity in my next post.  However, I think the
subjects of modesty, propriety, and decency merit a discussion.

Please read on...

If you ever travel outside the shores of the United States, you are
going to confront this issue.  Here are C.S. Lewis' thoughts on this
issue:

"The social rule of propriety lays down how much of the human body
should be displayed and what subjects can be referred to, and in what
words, according to the customs of a given social circle.  Thus, while
the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times, the
rule of propriety changes.  A girl in the Pacific islands wearing
hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes
might both be equally 'modest', proper, or decent, according to the
standards of their own societies:  and both, for all we could tell by
their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste)."

I agree.  My wife and I were traveling with friends in Austria a few
years ago.  We spent three weeks admiring the beautiful Alps and
immersing ourselves into the culture with all its great food, art, and
and centuries old architecture.

The last few days of the trip were spent at this incredible resort,
high in the Alps.  After checking in, my wife and I hurried to take a
relaxing dip in the underground hot tubs.  These hot tubs were
stunningly beautiful, and most relaxing.

My wife and I found ourselves alone, and enjoyed a great time of
relaxation soaking our weary bones from three weeks of travel.

Suddenly, our state of relaxation was broken when a family walked into
the underground tranquility.  Into our room walked father, mother,
young boy, and young girl.  All naked as jay birds!

Needless to say, we were shocked (to ourselves of course), and gave
each other a look of bewilderment.  Oh... so calmly, after staying an
appropriate amount of time,  so as to not look shocked, we gathered
our towels and went running upstairs to our friends to inquire about
this state of affairs.

Our friend, who was born in Austria, came down to the spa and read us
a sign, in German, that read, "No Bathing Suits Allowed"!

Culture shock to the extreme!

Here, again on this topic, is C.S. Lewis:

"When people break the rule of propriety current in their own time and
place, if they do so in order to excite lust in themselves or others,
then they are offending against chastity.  But if they break it
through ignorance or carelessness they are guilty only of bad
manners.  When, as often happens, they break it defiantly in order to
shock or embarrass others, they are not necessarily being unchaste,
but they are being uncharitable:  for it is uncharitable to take
pleasure in making other people uncomfortable.  I do not think that a
very strict or fussy standard of propriety is any proof of chastity or
any help to it, and I therefore regard the great relaxation and
simplifying of the rule which has taken place in my own lifetime as a
good thing."


So, do I think it befitting for a Christian to be a nudist?  I can
only answer this for myself, allow you to understand my reasoning's,
and implore you to seek your answer between you, your soul, and God
almighty.

For me, I will not be a nudist because:

    * I am not certain that I would be able to keep my thoughts pure
at all times.
    * I am not certain that, if I am a nudist that I can keep from
allowing a fellow brother/sister in Christ from stumbling.

    * I would derive no pleasure from playing nude volleyball.

    * I would certainly derive no pleasure from seeing some of my
friends nude, nor would they me!

On the other hand, the Bible gives great latitude, under Christ, for
what is lawful.  We simply must remember that we don't get to pick and
choose from God's word.  The Sermon on the Mount makes it clear, if we
lust in our heart, then we have committed adultery.

----

Comments:

AndyC said...

You are right on several fronts:

-It is a funny cartoon.
-Some will be less than pleased that you posted it.

-While propriety is situational, our feelings towards a particular
situation  is internal. I would not be a nudist because of how I would
feel doing so.

-If you engage is such behavior, you have to think about why you are
doing it. Being a nudist, are you doing it out of some feeling of
purity and freedom, or are you doing it because you can and you know
it will shock some segment of the population. If it is the second,
there is no propriety there.


Laurie said...

You're ahead of me in the reading now. But I found your summary
helpful. I appreciate Lewis' handling of the subject and, from what
you've posted, find myself in agreement. Becoming a Christian changed
the way I dress. I no longer choose to dress in a way that draws
attention to my sexuality. It's not right to publicize myself in that
way or to risk enticing others to lust. It's really kind of shocking
to look back and realize how much of my personal style as an
unbeliever revolved around looking "understated but sexy".

As far as being a nudist goes, not only do I think it goes against the
grain, (Sinners should have clothes on. Adam knew it and God
reinforced the notion by clothing him Himself, in more durable
garments.) It’s just plain unsanitary.


David A. Porter said...

I love that statement....sinners should have clothes on! LOL!


  Rich Bordner said...

David,
hmmmm....I agree in spirit. This is one of those areas where certain
relativeness reigns between cultures.

But, the underlying rules are the same: propriety and not exciting
lust. This is what we need to pay attention to. Seems like both you
and Lewis recognize this.

However, I am concerned that many would use the "cultural relativeness
of social propriety" argument to justify indulging in their own sinful
desires. As Paul argued in Romans 1, we sinners tend to be like that;
we tend to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and put the cart
before the horse (or, really, we just shoot the horse) for selfish
gain.


Rick said...

There is no place in the bible that condemns nudity, other than where
the serpent got away with his greatest lie - telling Adam and Eve that
their bodies were hideous and needed to cover themselves. God does not
make mistakes. When they hid from him because they were "naked", he
did not say "oh me, you're right. let me fix that...". He wanted to
know who told them they were "naked". They were cast out of Eden
because of disobedience, not because of nudity.

How sad that you equate simple nudity with sex.

I am proud to be a Christian Nudist and find no hypocrisy in that. You
can be nude without having sexual thoughts or activities.


David A. Porter said...

Rick,

I generally would not allow an anonymous post, but I am happy that you
did stop by to share your views.

I think you misunderstood my article. I am not of the opinion that
Christianity prohibits such things. There are many cultures where
nudity, or near nudity, is fairly common.

I am also not of the opinion that nudity, in and of itself, it
necessarily wrong.

I concluded my article with conclusions for my life. If I am around a
number of nude women, I am quite certain that my thought life would be
quite difficult to control.

Furthermore, if I were in such a setting, I would not want to be
responsible for another's thought life going haywire as well.

Further still, I personally don't have a desire to be naked around
other people. For what purpose would I do this? It doesn't seem
sanitary, and it seems rather like playing with fire.

It seems to me that our culture is so sexualized; I simply can't
imagine that there are no moments that wouldn't conflict with Christ's
Sermon on the Mount.

Therefore, this is my decision for my life. I am not suggesting that
this decision be yours. If you are a Christian, and you are able to be
in such surroundings with no impure thoughts, and you are confident
that no one could be lead astray from your actions, then I believe
that the Bible gives you the liberty to do so.

However, I am not of the belief that all of these things are possible.
Therefore, I choose not to use my liberty for the sake of the gospel.

PS - Rick, I do find it curious that you hide behind anonymity with
your opinions.


Rick Hill said in reply to David A. Porter...

David,

I didn't mean to leave off my last name - sorry about that. I am
unashamed of my views on this subject and should have signed my full
name... I respect your views and only responded in the first place
because of the implied relationship between social nudity and lust.

Would it be appropriate to assume that you avoid beaches and swimming
pools for the same reasons you listed above? It seems to me that a lot
of the swim wear worn in this day and age in public is designed to
produce lustful thoughts (along with a bunch of other clothing). The
reason you might be concerned about such thoughts is simply because of
the "naughtiness" that Americans are taught about the human body. And,
in that regard, I completely agree with you - things are way too
sexualized. It's sad that clothing manufacturers and other merchants
perpetuate this attitude with their advertising. I blame that and
children's toymakers for the poor body image that women grow up with.
The existence of the porn industry is even more lamentable.

People who lust for others don't have to be nude to have those
desires... But, I do not accept the implication that all people lust
for others.

I've been to several nudist clubs and have never had any inappropriate
thoughts about the people I've met and talked with, nor have I seen
any indication that other people were having such thoughts. I'm sure
you have been nude without sexual thoughts or actions. I'm sure you
have also seen your wife nude without sexual thoughts or actions at
times. It is not that much of a stretch to believe you could be nude
around nude women without lustful thoughts. It is equally likely to me
that you can be clothed around other clothed women without lustful
thoughts...

I am proud to be a member of the American Association for Nude
Recreation (AANR - www.aanr.com) and will not go to any place that
encourages (or tolerates) a different lifestyle less than family-
friendly. I am only nude in the privacy of my home or with other
nudists in appropriate surroundings. While my family does not
participate, they understand and accept my preference. I guess I'm
trying to tell you that I am neither an exhibitionist nor a voyeur. I
choose to be a nudist because I am more comfortable nude than clothed.
I am not trying to convert you - but please take a moment and review
the Frequently Asked Questions page on the AANR website (www.aanr.com/
faq.html) to learn why people choose to be nudists. You will not see
frontal nudity in any of the AANR web pages. You can also go to The
Naturist Society's home page (TNS - www.naturistsociety.com) and click
on Resources and then click on the 205 arguments in support of
naturism. You can also search for “Christian nudists” to get other
viewpoints. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_naturism contains
an interesting discussion.

Hopefully, those websites will address some of your concerns. Nudists
will treat you based on your attitude and what you say rather than
your appearance. Can you say that is true for the rest of the American
public?


Rick Hill

By the way, nudists sit on their towels to keep things sanitary…


David A. Porter said...

Rick,

If what you hold is true about your thought life, then you are a far
more advanced life form than I.

I don't buy your argument that because I might lust for someone in a
bathing suit, that this somehow makes the problem my lust, and leaves
nudity off the hook.

I am living in a fallen creature body, which is very susceptible to
fallen thoughts.

If you are able to be around naked people and keep your thought life
pure, then I belief Christianity gives grace for that.

My point is that this is not the case for most men, including me. I am
bombarded daily with sexual advertisements on the television. If I
happen to go a a mall, here in Scottsdale, most of the women have
altered their bodies to make it near impossible for me not to look
their way. To complicate this even more, they dress in very seductive
ways. They draw sexual attention to themselves.

It is very easy for me, as a male species, without working hard to
keep my thoughts in check, to quickly head down lusts path.

Does that mean that I can't be around a friend's wife, in a bathing
suit, and not have impure thoughts? Heavens no. Somewhere, in my
natural sensibilities, this is taboo. My mind doesn't go there.

But, put me on a beach, in the South of France, and have a beautiful
gal walk by in her skimpy little thong outfit, and my natural
inclinations are going to be like the cartoons of old. Remember...eyes
popping out of their heads?

I suspect that this is the case for most men. Therefore, for me, why
play with fire.

I also happen to believe that many men, who profess as you do, are not
being honest with themselves, and that the whole purpose of nudism is
to place a facade around their voyeuristic tendencies.

I am not making that judgment of you. I am not your judge. If you are
a Christian, then Jesus Christ is your judge. I would simply implore
you to test your heart vigorously, so as not to be deceived.

If you indeed stand pure with Christ on this issue, then by all means,
enjoy the sun.

I would also encourage you to be careful in your evangelism of nudism.
Christ also has a very clear message to those who would lead others
astray. Because you can not know a man's heart, it would be very
difficult for you to know who is being lead astray, and who isn't.

Therefore, once again, I come to my conclusion. Why bother. The
benefits are not anywhere near the risks.

PS - Once again, I struggled with accepting your post, because of your
numerous links to nudist sites. It is certainly not my desire to let
my blog be a stumbling block to others.

On the other hand, it also does not make sense to put this issue under
a blanket. This is why I wrote this post. To discuss the matter.
Unfortunately, your position favors the natural man's tendencies, and
may be more persuasive to some.

For that reason I add this prayer.

Abba,

Please, I pray, do not let this discussion become a stumbling block to
any. Instead, may this conversation bring our fallen nature to our
attention, and give us even more resolve to fight against those
tendencies.

In Jesus Name...Amen.



Rick Hill said...

David - we can go on and on and on...

As I said, the reason I replied to your blog is to answer the
generalization that nudism = lust. I agree that lust can happen nude
or clothed. But, speaking for the people that I've met, sexual
thoughts are removed when there is nothing to hide. I have met nude
women of all shapes and sizes, including some that could provoke your
cartoon analogy of bulging eyes. But I did not lust for them. There
was no mystery. I've never said that I don't look - I just don't ogle.
Your comment, "Somewhere, in my natural sensibilities, this is taboo.
My mind doesn't go there.", applies to me too, nowadays.

30 years ago, I could not look at a woman without mentally undressing
them and letting my hormones control me. I'm not proud of those days,
but I will acknowledge them.

I can honestly say that I have no sexual interest in anyone except my
wife, regardless of what they look like and whether they're dressed or
not. I

Forgive me if you feel like I am trying to lead you astray, convince
you to do anything that you're uncomfortable with, or even presume to
judge you.

The websites are family oriented - and I'm sorry if the inclusion of
them offended you. That was not my intent. The websites can describe
the issue more eloquently than I can.
Nude is not lewd. Nor is nudism a facade to hide behind.

I was baptized in Jesus' name (in '87). I've matured a bit since then
and am comfortable in my relationship with Jesus. I know I'll meet him
one day and will be judged for the actions of my life.

For anyone who reads these conversations, my suggestion is to pray
about it, and then study the bible with an open mind and decide what
is right for you.

As for myself, I remain completely unashamed of the body that God gave
me to live in, even though it doesn't measure up to the level of
perfection that the media promotes.


Rick


David A. Porter said...

Rick,

It seems that this conversation has reached its end. In closing I
would ask you to consider Jesus' words to Nicodemus. You see, baptism
has nothing to do with salvation. As Christ said, you must be born
again.

Please consider giving this post a read: 
http://www.boomerinthepew.com/2008/06/you-must-be-bor.html

http://tinyurl.com/bujrlo