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> On Oct 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Jerry Baker jbaker6953-/[email protected] [EAC] <EAC@=
yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>=20
You=E2=80=99ve had that Yahoo email address since at least 1999. I suspect =
that you would be singing a very different tune if Yahoo had just announced=
that they would be terminating their email service on December 15, after w=
hich you could no longer send or receive email using that address. You ind=
icate that they have a right to terminate any free service at any time. Wh=
at if they left the SMTP servers up, and kept accepting email for your addr=
ess, and just turned off your ability to see, or reply to, that email?=20=20
> You work as a moderator for this list for free, Fred. Should we make it=20
> against the law for you to stop? After all, that would screw so many=20
> people who counted on it. Surely you make enough at your job that it=20
> won't hurt you to be forced to continue, right?
>=20
I retired some years ago, so this has no financial impact on me.=20=20
You=E2=80=99re conflating a for-profit, massive corporation (Verizon) and a=
an individual doing something on a volunteer basis. There=E2=80=99s no un=
due burden for Verizon to have to inform us sooner of their decision to shu=
t down the groups. You don=E2=80=99t think that they just came up with tha=
t idea this week, almost one year to the day after the prior announcement t=
hat they would cripple the groups by removing the web access, email archive=
s, etc., do you?
> Did DARPA make Yahoo groups? No. Thank you.
>=20
Stop trying to deflect. You stated "The internet and just about every wort=
hwhile service spawned from it came from people looking to make money and i=
nvestors willing to risk their=20
own capital on the chance of doing so.=E2=80=9D I proved that argument wro=
ng.=20=20
> Why not? THe service belongs to Yahoo. It's pants-on-head retarded to eve=
n think that people do not have a right to provide a service unless the gov=
ernment is allowed to force them to continue providing it as long as the go=
vernment wants them to provide it
>=20
The government has every right to require companies provide ample notice be=
fore turning off a service. Cell phone companies are required to provide y=
ou with 911 service even if you don=E2=80=99t have a cell phone plan. Such=
regulations are why your power can=E2=80=99t be cut off, your house forecl=
osed upon, or your water shut off immediately after your payment is overdue=
..=20
> So it's OK for the government to force anybody to do anything that won't=
=20
> bankrupt them? I don't even know how somebody not taking some=20
> psychoactive drugs could imagine that's ok.
>=20
That=E2=80=99s another straw man argument. At no point did I write anythin=
g like that.
> In your world people don't consider the potential costs of an=20
> investment? Is tha[sic]
>=20
Only if the costs are a significant impediment to profits. If a service ha=
s been available for 20 years, requiring 20 weeks of notice of shutdown wou=
ld not impose some terrible cost. In this case, Verizon/Yahoo would probab=
ly still have announced a December 15 shutdown, but they would have made th=
e announcement several months earlier, making things much easier for the us=
ers.
> > To paraphrase you, what kind of cockamamie universe do they live in=20
> > where they thought they could afford to invest their blood, sweat, and=
=20
> > tears into producing something for others in return for jack squat? If=
=20
> > you=E2=80=99re going to claim that they got nothing of value from us, t=
hen=20
> > explain why they created the service.
>=20
> It doesn't matter why they created it. It's theirs. They can do with it=20
> what they want.
>=20
It does matter why they created it since your answer would prove at least o=
ne of your prior statements wrong. First you said no company would do anyt=
hing without a profit motive and then you said that Yahoo created their gro=
ups as some kind of free public service for which they received nothing of =
value. One of those statements must be wrong.
> No free country makes people justify why the government=20
> shouldn't be allowed to commandeer their property.
>=20
We live in a society with laws, rules, and regulations, many of which impos=
e costs on businesses and citizens. Every year I have to drive my vehicles=
(and I have many) to state-license inspection stations and pay for annual =
safety inspections. That=E2=80=99s the government taking my time, my fuel,=
and making me put wear and tear on my vehicles. You don=E2=80=99t see me =
railing against that as the government =E2=80=9Cstealing=E2=80=9D from me o=
r =E2=80=98commandeering=E2=80=99 my property. It=E2=80=99s the cost of li=
ving in a society.
> Who knew there was no insurance before the ACA tripled the cost?
>=20
Many of us with pre-existing conditions who were turned down after applying=
for policies knew that there was no health insurance for us. As to the co=
mment that =E2=80=9Cthe ACA tripled the cost,=E2=80=9D see the following:
<http://healthaffairs.acemlnb.com/lt.php?s=3Dfaf04c017e0ed702b0adb25376565=
cce&i=3D46A70A6A727>
> As someone who works in the construction industry, you have no idea how m=
uch stuff doesn't get built because of the cost of ADA compliance. It's eas=
y to see the stuff that's there, but not so easy to see what would have bee=
n there and isn't because of your "uptopia."
>=20
If you were in a wheelchair, would you dismiss your ability to go into a re=
staurant, bank, store, or government building some utopian fantasy not wort=
hy of pursuing lest some business be put off by the costs? Would you be al=
right with employers telling you that they could not hire you because they =
did not have wheelchair-accessible offices?
> I'm not saying business will never do anything if there's regulations,=20
> just like businesses keep operating even though they are plagued by=20
> thieves and crooks. Just because something won't bankrupt someone=20
> doesn't make it right. It's morally wrong to steal from other people=20
> whether or not you feel like their property belongs to you or not.
>=20
I don=E2=80=99t accept your premise that it is =E2=80=9Ctheft=E2=80=9D for =
governments to impose regulatory costs on businesses. Neither do our court=
s.
You want all of the benefits of a society, but none of the costs. You want=
companies to benefit from taxpayer-developed technologies like the Interne=
t, GPS, bar codes, integrated circuits, and touch screens. But you don=E2=
=80=99t want any regulations to benefit individuals if it might impose even=
minimal costs on those businesses; you even call such regulations =E2=80=
=9Ctheft.=E2=80=9D=20=20=20
Regards,
Fred Maxwell
Moderator, Exact Audio Copy Yahoogroup
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=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p><div><br class><blockquote type=3D"cite" class><div class>On Oct 1=
3, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Jerry Baker <a href=3D"mailto:jbaker6953-/[email protected]" cl=
ass>jbaker6953-/[email protected]</a> [EAC] <<a href=3D"mailto:EAC-hHKSG33Tihh9OS/[email protected]=
m" class>[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interch=
ange-newline"></blockquote><div><br class></div><div><div>You=E2=80=99ve ha=
d that Yahoo email address since at least 1999. I suspect that you would be=
singing a very different tune if Yahoo had just announced that they would =
be terminating their email service on December 15, after which you could no=
longer send or receive email using that address. You indicate that t=
hey have a right to terminate any free service at any time. What if t=
hey left the SMTP servers up, and kept accepting email for your address, an=
d just turned off your ability to see, or reply to, that email? </div=
><div class><br class></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class><div clas=
s><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: 13px;font-family: Arial, helve=
tica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spaci=
ng: normal;text-align: start;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: none;white-sp=
ace: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D=
"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgia;" class><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0=
px 1em;" class>You work as a moderator for this list for free, Fred. Should=
we make it<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class>aga=
inst the law for you to stop? After all, that would screw so many<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class>people who counted on it=
.. Surely you make enough at your job that it<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space"> </span><br class>won't hurt you to be forced to continue, righ=
t?<br class></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I retired some ye=
ars ago, so this has no financial impact on me. </div><div><br class>=
</div><div>You=E2=80=99re conflating a for-profit, massive corporation (Ver=
izon) and a an individual doing something on a volunteer basis. There=
=E2=80=99s no undue burden for Verizon to have to inform us sooner of their=
decision to shut down the groups. You don=E2=80=99t think that they =
just came up with that idea this week, almost one year to the day after the=
prior announcement that they would cripple the groups by removing the web =
access, email archives, etc., do you?</div><div><br class></div><blockquote=
type=3D"cite" class><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: =
13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: normal;fo=
nt-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent: 0px=
;text-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><div id=
=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgia;" c=
lass><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>Did DARPA make Yahoo groups? N=
o. Thank you.<br class></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Stop t=
rying to deflect. You stated <i class>"The internet and just about ev=
ery worthwhile service spawned from it came from people looking to make mon=
ey and investors willing to risk their </i></div><i class>own capital =
on the chance of doing so.=E2=80=9D </i>I proved that argument wrong.=
</div><div><br class></div><div><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" st=
yle=3D"font-size: 13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;fon=
t-style: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: star=
t;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0=
px;" class><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-f=
amily: Georgia;" class><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class>Why not? THe service belongs to Yahoo. It's pants-on-he=
ad retarded to even think that people do not have a right to provide a serv=
ice unless the government is allowed to force them to continue providing it=
as long as the government wants them to provide it</blockquote></p></div><=
/div></div></div><div>The government has every right to require companies p=
rovide ample notice before turning off a service. Cell phone companie=
s are required to provide you with 911 service even if you don=E2=80=99t ha=
ve a cell phone plan. Such regulations are why your power can=E2=80=
=99t be cut off, your house foreclosed upon, or your water shut off immedia=
tely after your payment is overdue. </div><div><br class></div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite" class><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-si=
ze: 13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: norma=
l;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><di=
v id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgia=
;" class><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>So it's OK for the governm=
ent to force anybody to do anything that won't<span class=3D"Apple-converte=
d-space"> </span><br class>bankrupt them? I don't even know how somebo=
dy not taking some<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br cl=
ass>psychoactive drugs could imagine that's ok.<br class></p></div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>That=E2=80=99s another straw man argument. &nbs=
p;At no point did I write anything like that.</div><br class><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite" class><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: 13p=
x;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: normal;font-=
weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent: 0px;te=
xt-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><div id=3D=
"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgia;" clas=
s><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>In your world people don't consid=
er the potential costs of an<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </s=
pan><br class>investment? Is tha[sic]</p></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><i class>Only if the costs are a significant impediment to profits.=
</i> If a service has been available for 20 years, requiring 20 weeks=
of notice of shutdown would not impose some terrible cost. In this c=
ase, Verizon/Yahoo would probably still have announced a December 15 shutdo=
wn, but they would have made the announcement several months earlier, makin=
g things much easier for the users.</div><div><br class></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite" class><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: 13=
px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: normal;font=
-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent: 0px;t=
ext-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><div id=
=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgia;" c=
lass><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>> To paraphrase you, what k=
ind of cockamamie universe do they live in<span class=3D"Apple-converted-sp=
ace"> </span><br class>> where they thought they could afford to in=
vest their blood, sweat, and<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </s=
pan><br class>> tears into producing something for others in return for =
jack squat? If<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br =
class>> you=E2=80=99re going to claim that they got nothing of value fro=
m us, then<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class>>=
explain why they created the service.<br class><br class>It doesn't matter=
why they created it. It's theirs. They can do with it<span class=3D"Apple-=
converted-space"> </span><br class>what they want.</p></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: =
13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-weight: normal;l=
etter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: no=
ne;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 25=
5);" class><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-f=
amily: Georgia;" class><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>It <i class>=
does</i> matter why they created it since your answer would prove at least =
one of your prior statements wrong. First you said no company would d=
o anything without a profit motive and then you said that Yahoo created the=
ir groups as some kind of free public service for which they received nothi=
ng of value. One of those statements must be wrong.</p></div></div></=
div></div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" =
class style=3D"font-size: 13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-s=
erif;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div=
id=3D"ygrp-text" class style=3D"font-family: Georgia;"><p class style=3D"m=
argin: 0px 0px 1em;">No free country makes people justify why the governmen=
t <br class>shouldn't be allowed to commandeer their property.<br clas=
s></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class><div class style=3D"font-si=
ze: 13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:=
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class><div class style=3D"font-family: Georgia;"=
><p class style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;">We live in a society with laws, ru=
les, and regulations, many of which impose costs on businesses and citizens=
.. Every year I have to drive my vehicles (and I have many) to state-l=
icense inspection stations and pay for annual safety inspections. Tha=
t=E2=80=99s the government taking my time, my fuel, and making me put wear =
and tear on my vehicles. You don=E2=80=99t see me railing against tha=
t as the government =E2=80=9Cstealing=E2=80=9D from me or =E2=80=98commande=
ering=E2=80=99 my property. It=E2=80=99s the cost of living in a soci=
ety.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-size: 13px;font-family: Ar=
ial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: normal;font-weight: normal;le=
tter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: non=
e;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" class>=
<div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgia;" class><p style=3D"mar=
gin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>Who knew there was no insurance before the ACA tri=
pled the cost?<br class></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Many =
of us with pre-existing conditions who were turned down after applying for =
policies knew that there was no health insurance for us. As to the co=
mment that =E2=80=9Cthe ACA tripled the cost,=E2=80=9D see the following:</=
div><div><strong class><em class><a data=3D"NotApplicable" href=3D"http://h=
ealthaffairs.acemlnb.com/lt.php?s=3Dfaf04c017e0ed702b0adb25376565cce&i=
=3D46A70A6A727" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" style=3D"color: rgb(17, 126, 17=
4);min-width: 100%;" target=3D"_blank" class><img alt data=3D"External" src=
=3D"http://healthaffairs.imgus11.com/public//332ce71d3968fad1b21322a40b70fa=
a7.png?r=3D1700548808" style=3D"text-align: center;border-color: currentcol=
or;width: 484px;max-width: 100%;" width=3D"484" class></a></em></strong></d=
iv><div style=3D"text-align: center;"><br class></div><div><br class></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"=
font-size: 13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style=
: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-=
indent: 0px;text-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" cl=
ass><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: =
Georgia;" class><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>As someone who work=
s in the construction industry, you have no idea how much stuff doesn't get=
built because of the cost of ADA compliance. It's easy to see the stuff th=
at's there, but not so easy to see what would have been there and isn't bec=
ause of your "uptopia."</p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>If you=
were in a wheelchair, would you dismiss your ability to go into a restaura=
nt, bank, store, or government building some utopian fantasy not worthy of =
pursuing lest some business be put off by the costs? Would you be alr=
ight with employers telling you that they could not hire you because they d=
id not have wheelchair-accessible offices?</div><div><br class></div><block=
quote type=3D"cite" class><div class><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"font-s=
ize: 13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-style: norm=
al;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: start;text-indent=
: 0px;text-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;" class><d=
iv id=3D"ygrp-msg" class><div id=3D"ygrp-text" style=3D"font-family: Georgi=
a;" class><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class>I'm not saying business w=
ill never do anything if there's regulations,<span class=3D"Apple-converted=
-space"> </span><br class>just like businesses keep operating even tho=
ugh they are plagued by<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><=
br class>thieves and crooks. Just because something won't bankrupt someone<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class>doesn't make it=
right. It's morally wrong to steal from other people<span class=3D"Apple-c=
onverted-space"> </span><br class>whether or not you feel like their p=
roperty belongs to you or not.</p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></di=
v><div>I don=E2=80=99t accept your premise that it is =E2=80=9Ctheft=E2=80=
=9D for governments to impose regulatory costs on businesses. Neither=
do our courts.</div><div><br class></div><div>You want all of the benefits=
of a society, but none of the costs. You want companies to benefit f=
rom taxpayer-developed technologies like the Internet, GPS, bar codes, inte=
grated circuits, and touch screens. But you don=E2=80=99t want any re=
gulations to benefit individuals if it might impose even minimal costs on t=
hose businesses; you even call such regulations =E2=80=9Ctheft.=E2=80=9D &n=
bsp; </div><div><br class></div><div><div class><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Avenir;font-size: 14px;" class>Regards,</span><br style=3D"font-famil=
y: Avenir;font-size: 14px;" class><span style=3D"font-family: Avenir;font-s=
ize: 14px;" class> Fred Maxwell</span><br style=3D"font-family: Aveni=
r;font-size: 14px;" class><span style=3D"font-family: Avenir;font-size: 14p=
x;" class> Moderator, Exact Audio Copy Yahoogroup</span></div><div cl=
ass><span style=3D"font-family: Avenir;font-size: 14px;" class><br class></=
span></div></div></p>
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-color:#E3E3E3;">
Posted by: Fred Maxwell <[email protected]> <=
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3E3E3;">
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