Re: [Tiki-devel] About the roundtable meetings...

Hi,

I agree with the idea of a set time for the meeting every month, and the 
time as Bernard suggested would be good. If I recall correctly, the time 
hasn't really varied much over the months, so that should be agreeable.

If somebody let's us know that they would like to attend but the time is 
bad for them, then maybe that could be an additional meeting, as a 
special case, keeping the regular schedule as it is.

Bernard asked "who is the Tiki team?" in the comparison to "the Jitsi 
team" sharing at their monthly meeting. Maybe if our RTM time is always 
the same, being optimistic about this, there might be a better chance of 
"the Tiki team" members participating. I'm thinking of people that 
normally are apparently too busy to attend.

The set meeting time would also eliminate at least one barrier to entry 
-- not knowing exactly when the meeting is -- for newcomers to Tiki, or 
other people that don't normally attend.

As a kind of Plan B, as I brought up in the Matrix chat, if numbers 
continue to stay low, we could kind of refocus the RTM as a podcast in 
the sense that, while we would still encourage live participation, we 
would put more into promoting watching and listening to the recordings. 
We should do this anyway, but this makes more sense the fewer people 
participate. It would be a matter of posting the recording links 
regularly, writing news articles or using a blog, and labeling the 
recordings as the "Tiki Roundtable Blog" or similar, etc.

Of course, whoever is in charge of the meeting would have a bigger task 
this way. In the past, people who wanted to participate added their 
topics to the agenda. If few people participate, then the meeting 
facilitator(s) needs to come up with the topics and presentations (and 
interviews, etc., thinking about what goes into regular podcasts). This 
could be a lot of work, though, so it would be much better if attendance 
increased and people were ready with topics and things to say about them.

-- Gary

On 4/26/2023 4:17 PM, Bernard Sfez wrote:
> Hello Marc, Torsten, All,
>
> (I waited a week or so since my initial post)
>
> Based on the feedback;
>
> *1/ Have a TRM planned yearly with fixed day*
> IE : Every 3rd Thursday at 13:00 UTC (like it used to).
> /Note: This yearly planning (date and time) can be different of course 
> but once set we don’t move it. Should be between 12:00UTC and 14:00UTC 
>  (https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20230426&p1=165&p3=195&p4=37&p5=176&p6=2480 
> <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20230426&p1=165&p3=195&p4=37&p5=176&p6=2480>/
> /
> /
> I think the people willing to join the TRM will be pleased if that 
> solves the issue.
> /
> /
> *1.1/ Who will be there ?*
>> where the Jitsi team shares
>
> It would be awesome to follow the Jitsi example you gave Marc, but who 
> is the Tiki team ?
>
> If people with THE knowledge don’t comes to the TRM, there is no "Tiki 
> team" during the TRM.
> At a point that I would say to our VIP (the Tiki team): "setup any 
> date time that is good for you and I will manage”. (or look at the 
> recording) 🥴
>
> I understand some of the people with deep knowledge won’t never comes, 
> that’s their choice and it’s ok.
> But a few have this knowledge and users need them to share it so they 
> can promote/document/contribute to the Tiki project.
>
>
> *2/ Have a flexible second date*
> I would be happy with one working TRM. ;-)
>
> However, if we want flexible meetings, we can use the matrix chat and 
> setup a meeting on the go (it happened several times).
> As not all uses the Matrix chat, may be those meetings should be 
> announced in the dev list. (But informal is what it is… no guaranties)
>
> —
>
> May be most people coding and using Tiki are not interested anymore in 
> TRM and it is not really a problem with the schedule.
> 3 people discussing this is quite low….
>
>
> Regards,
> Bernard
>
>
>> On 23 Apr 2023, at 2:02, Marc Laporte <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Bernard,
>>
>> I would love to participate more often, and I have many answers to 
>> questions that people will ask (ex.: what is roadmap for feature 
>> XYZ?). However, as a CEO of a growing company, and a volunteer in 
>> various organizations, my schedule fills up quickly. I am always 
>> available for emergencies, but I refuse to be an enabler of an 
>> inefficient process. And thus, I won't cancel/move my other meetings 
>> because the roundtable was confirmed a few days before it is held.
>>
>> It takes less time (FOR EVERYONE) to plan a meeting in 3 months than 
>> in 3 weeks because almost everyone is available if you book them 3 
>> months ahead of time, assuming you pick a time appropriate for all 
>> timezones of your target audience. But if you book people 3 weeks 
>> before, you need to use a tool like 
>> https://doc.tiki.org/PluginConvene and everyone needs to invest more 
>> time. Block all potential meeting dates, vote, then, stay informed of 
>> when meeting is confirmed, and free up other slots.
>>
>> As you now, I manage a team. I want my colleagues to participate to 
>> these events. They can learn, and they can share. But as a company 
>> policy, we don't impose work schedules. Team members make their own 
>> schedule, and they adapt for the few times we have team meetings. 
>> Thus, late announcements of monthly round tables make it that we 
>> don't even convey that there will be a meeting.
>>
>> If you plan the meetings 12 months ahead of time, they can be useful 
>> to help organize other things, like branching dates or release dates. 
>> We just picked the dates for the branching and release of Tiki 26.0, 
>> and if we knew when the next roundtable was, it would been taken into 
>> consideration.
>>
>> If you plan the meetings months ahead of time, we can permanently 
>> have a banner on all *.tiki.org sites which says: "Next community 
>> meeting in 22 days. Click here to add to your calendar, click here 
>> for a browser reminder 1 hour before the meeting, etc."
>>
>> So planning monthly meetings on short notice:
>> * Takes more time from everybody (organizers and participants)
>> * Reduces participation of existing community
>> * Reduces the opportunity for synergistic scheduling * Reduces the 
>> opportunity for potential new community members to know about it, and 
>> join.
>>
>> So my recommendation is to pick the same day/time every month and 
>> schedule/announce them 12 months in advance. So everyone can block 
>> those times in their schedule. You can look at past votes to see what 
>> are general preferences. I guarantee that this will have a huge impact.
>>
>> It is very similar to when we didn't have scheduled Tiki releases. By 
>> announcing a release schedule, the whole community could 
>> self-organize to fit their individual plans within a larger community 
>> plan: https://tiki.org/Tiki-Versions
>>
>> Here is an associated concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy
>>
>>
>> As an example: Jitsi, and I am copy-pasting their info:
>> ----
>> Recording of Jitsi's bi-weekly community call. This is where the 
>> Jitsi team shares their latest development status and plans. 
>>  Community developers can ask about issues and make requests directly 
>> with the Jitsi development team.
>>
>> Join us every-other Monday at 10:30 Central US - 
>> https://meet.jit.si/TheCall.
>> Visit jitsi.org for more details.
>> ----
>> Mautic has something similar.
>>
>> FYI, we have some team members assigned to work on this:
>> https://meetingfacilitator.dev4.evoludata.com/
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:51:24 +0300 Tiki developers 
>> [email protected] said
>>
>>> Hello All, We have a TRM today at 13UTC and I would like to share 
>>> some thoughts… TRM participation is down to a point that I wonder if 
>>> there is any interest
>>> to keep and maintain them… End of 2022… ahem let’s skip to 2023. 01 
>>> few people (fosdem meeting) 02 was cancelled 03 was only Gary and me 
>>> 04 … not a lot of people express interest to join I wrote this 
>>> because I hope we can keep a formal regular meeting between
>>> members and new comers of the Tiki project. Those meetings still 
>>> have interest for: - Announcement/status of things to come: release 
>>> process, change of
>>> technology discussion (bs5, PHP8, etc) - Demonstration of new 
>>> additions in Tiki or better way to use the existing - Human/social 
>>> relations between members of the community —— In the past they had 
>>> an interest for: - Discuss revamp or addition of stuff - Vote on a 
>>> decision - Tiki.o websites decisions or changes - Tiki Association 
>>> Those are happening outside of the TRM since a while. It allowed to 
>>> have more
>>> topics filling the TRM planning. —— With fewer point of interest, it 
>>> is very hard to maintain TRM if the meetings
>>> are not regularly organized and offer interesting topics every month 
>>> Announcements Having 2 to 4 announcements per year for release 
>>> status or branching is not
>>> enough to fill the TRM. (Tiki25.0 was the last release discussion 
>>> Nov 2022) Technology addition or change requires volunteering from 
>>> developers or people
>>> involved and having the knowledge. (not happening) Demonstrations 
>>> Requires volunteering from developers or people that have things to 
>>> show to
>>> the other. (Volunteers are rare and it can’t be always the same 
>>> members) Personally I think that with a continuous flow of additions 
>>> in Tiki we should
>>> have 2 TRM per month. A lot of stuff is added, very few knows and
>>> documentation with samples/usecases to attract people on Tiki don’t 
>>> follow
>>> 🥴 Human/social relations between members of the community While 
>>> essential in my mind and almost the reason I keep coming, this is not
>>> enough… See the usual suspect (stolen from JonnyB I admit) in a few 
>>> hours, Bernard
>>
>>
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