Re: Open Discussion: The Future of Xaraya

Good to see you post John, been a long time. A little humor is always nice 
;)

Yes lots of opportunities have been in the past and everyone in the 
community has been affected by it, I know I have. That said, things can be 
learned from these mistakes and hopefully have been for the better of the 
project. Here is to hoping 2009 is a better year.

As for the newsgroups, I have no problem with it, I was more just saying the 
preference would be here over the forums as I know lots have no interest in 
visiting the forums.


"John Cox" <[email protected]> wrote in message 
news:mailman.3934.1232239985.5375.xaraya_devel-gn8pmO+6nsymdvSpIQae8A@public.gmane.org
> 1st) Development usability is not only bad but really f'ing bad for anyone
> not immersed in Xaraya.  While there is a great deal that Xaraya can do 
> from
> the core, finding the right function, method, etc is not generally that 
> easy
> to do.  I understand the choices that have been made in the past, but that
> doesn't make them right.  If I was thinking of using a framework to create
> an application, why would I spend the time to learn Xaraya is the question
> that you need to ask yourselves.  Does it give a novice a speedier
> development time?  I don't really think it does.  Are you able to identify
> the advantages within 30 minutes of development?  I would probably say no 
> on
> that one as well.  In addition the documentation is spread very thin as to
> what it takes to really take advantage of the system.  I've actually been
> trying to work on some concepts in the past months only to be zapped with
> WTF is this moments.  I won't even get into the complexity of the
> development process that has been set up at this point, but I will say
> instead of me working within the group for my changes I have just been
> throwing them on a SVN tree because it's much easier to deal with...

I guess a function database would be helpful in this area, a quick look up 
and you know where to look, I know I have seen similar databases on other 
frameworks websites and some forum software. It might be enough but it is a 
start.

> 2nd) As bad as the development usability is, the overall usability is 
> almost
> comical.  Has anyone taken the time to count the number of options there 
> are
> in the system?  For Christ's sake, just make the majority of those
> development choices in the templates and be done with it.  It adds to the
> weight of the system and adds to the confusion of the system in general. 
> If
> you are looking for a blog, why go through this level of complexity when
> there are much easier things to learn on the market.  If you are an
> enterprise user looking to actually use the power of Xaraya would you even
> consider it with the amount of sloppiness in the interface?  Hi Rock, meet
> Hard Place.  I could go on with some of the concepts that are great but
> really hard to understand (ACL, Roles, Articles, Categories, etc) for the
> average person trying to administer a site.

Here I have to agree on some parts and not on other, I think it depends what 
level of administrator will be looking after different parts of the site. 
That said, I think if we changed how the GUI worked some we could make the 
options more manageable.

> 3rd) The concept of a CMS is very 2002.  The concept of a framework is 
> very
> 2007.  What needs to be thought out is what is actually innovating for 
> 2011
> and bring that to fruition in a usable form.  Focus on innovation, and
> development help will come.  Focus on a concept via a now niche market, 
> and
> you will be spinning your wheels (IE: the last few years here).

Yes a framework is very here and now, and is waning to a point, but that is 
partly why I started this post, to get people to talk about the future. 
Where do you see things in 2011?

> 4th) The perceived performance is not very good.  We could go on and on 
> with
> how great the cache is, etc, but its not a very light thing to load on a
> site.  How big are the tarballs at this point?  That would probably turn 
> me
> off if I was just taking a look for something to use.  Like it or not, but
> the number of queries in the code is astounding.  Web 2.0 has come and 
> gone
> at this point, and there was a giant missed opportunity.

Perceived is the keyword and Xaraya.com doesn't help that much as it stands 
now, but that is more due to lack of a server admin and less to do with the 
product. Not that performance can't be improved.

> 5th) Politics are funny and quality entertainment, but I would
> be embarrassed at the past few weeks as to the tones to a silly election
> which in the end probably won't change the fate of the project in the 
> least
> (although, I hope I am wrong on this point).  How about someone step up 
> and
> lead, or fork the codebase and do something different but don't belittle 
> one
> another.

Yes the first attempt at an election didn't go well, I think the second try 
is going a bit better.

> 6th) Chat is no way to make communicate.  You guys could chat all day 
> long,
> but for the casual observer to this project it doesn't show any life.
> Perhaps that is what you are shooting for, but a mailing list is much more
> effective to embrace the developers in the community and the users.

I agree though it can be useful tool to use to make informed decisions 
before writing. It is also a good support mechanism. Though it has it short 
coming there too as it isn't left for everyone to see, nothing is perfect I 
guess.

> 7th) Stop with the "marketing concepts" and instead invest the time to 
> just
> getting the word out.  I used to spend two hours a day hitting other 
> mailing
> list, other forums, etc just to say how great Xaraya is, and to bring 
> folks
> in.  It just takes time and personality.  It takes a little drive.

I agree that word of mouth and the daily rounds are part of a good practice 
to getting exposure for Xaraya.

> 8th) Stop talking and start working.  1079 bugs found shows that you are
> doing to much in the code base or you aren't doing enough coding.  Of 
> course
> a quick look at mt.xaraya.com doesn't really show me much because of how
> complex that has gotten.  The closest I could find to a last commit was 15
> days ago, but who knows.
>
> Anyway, my 2c's.  Enjoy, and best wishes.

Well as much as some would like to just get working there needs to be a good 
plan of action first otherwise it will be hours of wasted time.