RE: RE: Toolbar Visual Style default
"Flad Deborah M. (DSCYF)" <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.db.oracle.toad.free |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <0D23C2BB95152B4E8FC530E9901138AC110FB6DD@DTIBIGGSE14MB4.state.de.us> |
For the marketing folks looking over our shoulders... * I was sure I wanted TFO after playing with a trial for a few days where I tried to use only it instead of whatever I then had available and documenting what I found. * I was sold on TFO after my sales guy at Quest hooked me up on a webcast with a tech guy so I could see TFO in action and to ask some questions. He dealt with my out of left field questions without missing a beat, spun TFO in different directions so I could see its flexibility and showed me a few tricks like using hot keys. * I knew the product was worth my lobbying management for it when during my trial I had to contact Support and had one of the best interactions with software support, ever. Quest Support continues to impress me. * My management signed off on buying TFO when I dropped all my MLOGS (by mistake of course) and froze the production db while using another less expensive tool. They watched as I used TFO to fix my error, quickly free the db. Then I showed how I would be less likely to make the same mistake in TFO. hey had some trouble with the name "Toad" but smiled the next time they came by my office and heard the TFO ribit. * I continue to praise TFO because of the help and support and humor I've found on the Yahoo Toad groups. I learn new tricks, I see that the programmers really listen, and I feel like I am one of the owners of the software, not just a cash cow. So, marketing guys: do whatever you can to keep Quest Support helpful, friendly and at the top of their game(while problems happen and can be ugly, lack of support is deadly), continue to have the tech guys show off their products(even if its only for an audience of one newby DBA), and come spend time lurking on the forums (we're a fun and diverse group of users). And if you drop in on Fridays, well, it'll be a hearty slap on your back and a tankard of ale you'll be getting from me. Arrgh! DM Flad, DSCYF MIS Unit O: 302-633-2694 Emergencies: 302-528-3652 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Lerch Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 16:09 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default well all new icons has been in our plans for a couple of years but we've spun our wheels a bit due to resource constraints. It is again on the roadmap for 11.6, at least starting with the Editor & Schema Browser, so maybe this fall you'll see them. I agree, it would really spice it up a bit. Some of the ones in there are really old. We have a great UI designer, Kannan, but he's one guy in California on other products so we borrow him when we can. From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Phyllis Helton Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:48 PM To: '[email protected]' Subject: RE: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default I, too, understand the need for flash. That's why I was saying the icons could be updated. Just that alone could change the look. And the execs could show potential users the office style bars and those of us who are used to the clean, sleek look could stay happy with what we have. I will say, though, that whatever TOAD looks like, as long as the functionality doesn't change I would never switch. Part of me has always wished we had an MDI interface, but then again, I've gotten used to the way things are and see the benefits. The main thing I would be concerned about would be any changes that require a significant rewrite of code. I would far rather have stability than have to deal with the ground-up rewrite that only gives me new interface. And I would rather get new features than new interface. The picture of the Swiss Army Knife is perfect for the illustration here. As long as TOAD is going to offer all the functionality that it does, it is going to look complicated. :) From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Lerch Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:12 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default Such an insightful post James. It feels good to be so well understood. And might I say prophetic: > Maybe start with the others in the family? We've done precisely that, though I suspect it will also end with them. It makes the most sense for the newer Toads to have the newer interfaces, and they do. Some of them have very nice interfaces, Toad for Data Analysts, for instance. Debbie and her team have done really good work on that product. Of course it has a narrow focus - querying and reporting - which helps. The other products are more of an IDE. Toad is IDE, querying, reporting, and making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And if we find some cool component down the road which does something neat related to computers, why, it may get dropped in too. There is a tire pressure gauge in the tool below. Can you find it? Of course you can't. Can you redesign the below tool so that it's user-friendly, looks slick and is easy to find everything? I'm not holding my breath. Toad exceeds 3 million lines of source code and has half a dozen programmers on it. It has over 160 primary windows and vastly more secondary windows. Let's not even talk about the embedded functionality inside all the right-click menus. We have long since passed the event horizon on this product, the point at which we decided that our mantra would be "if it's possible to code, and it's related to something Oracle, we're going to crank it in." That philosophy was essentially etched in granite by our founder a dozen years ago and we haven't strayed from it since. Incredibly, it remains exactly what the world's Oracle professionals want. Who are we to disagree? One thing I've seen over the years, when you get involved with Toad you need to check your hubris at the door. From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Hudson, James - DNR Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:46 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default I can see the tension here. If you're a Quest person out at a trade show or sales call, or one of us (developers) trying to sell Toad to upper management or an internal standards group, then you want pretty. If the interface doesn't look sexy, that's a barrier. You can say "but it's incredibly functional" over and over; it's still a point against you because pretty sells. Pretty and current is the expectation. And if you're a new user of Toad, and it doesn't look like everything else you use, then you're going to have a tough learning curve. For the new user, familiar is better. That goes for all the .Net and Java developers out there too, of course, who could use a better database tool. So both of those count against sales growth. And marketing staff make their money on sales growth. On the other hand, we're the installed base. We're all sitting here with jobs that require productivity. Toad gives us incredible productivity. And any change in the UI reduces our productivity, at least for a while. We don't really care about pretty, we want increased functionality. As long as that's being delivered, we'll keep upgrading and paying those maintenance fees. But the UI will have to be modernized a lot or Toad's going see declining new sales because it's "outdated". And those will be the big corporate sales -- individual consultants are smart enough to buy whatever makes them most productive. In that sense, software is a fashion business. On the other hand, any big change in the UI will mean the installed base thinks about evaluating alternatives, especially the "free" alternatives like SQL*Developer. And bad word of mouth about version from the installed base means reduced sales. So you make us unhappy and you'll see reductions in both income streams. Rock and a hard place. The only good solution is the nearly impossible one: deliver a version of Toad with a cutting edge UI which provides all the functionality of the existing product and a very, very easy learning curve for current users. With no increase in the resources used on the PC or the time things take, of course. Some of us will still say "this looks different" and vote with our feet, but maybe not many and maybe you'll have some time to convince us it's all OK. My guess is Toad for Oracle will be the hardest of the Toad products because of both the code-base-and-tools and the installed base. Maybe start with the others in the family? I'll be pulling for you. ________________________________ From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ray Paschke Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:58 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default >>Another thing to keep in mind - TOAD is not an app being used by people who are intimidated by computers and need to have a fun or pretty interface so no one is scared by it. It is a serious tool for professionals. If you want cute and fun, get Angry Birds for your computer. :-) BRAVO ! ! Much better said I could ever have. Ray Paschke System Analyst Federal Home Loan Bank of Pittsburgh Desk: 412-288-5548 Cell: 412-260-7026 "Phyllis Helton" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent by: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 04/26/2012 01:35 PM Please respond to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> To "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> cc Subject RE: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default I hate ribbons - they are such a waste of space. Even though theoretically they would take up the same space as the toolbars I'm currently showing, I have 88 different icons displaying that allow me to run an action with 1 click - not to mention the single clicks I can use to switch windows and all the right-click and drop-down options for things I can do with 2 clicks plus the menu. In Excel, with the ribbons I have only half the number of icons and have to use two or three clicks to do anything else. Not to mention that to get the icons I use most often on the ribbon is not possible. (Yeah, I can customize the Quick Access Toolbar, but can only get a finite number of icons there. Keep in mind that when I upgrade my programs I am not one to find the way to make it look like it used to and I do like the look of many of the new programs. I just don't see the point in doing anything to change TOAD to be more like other programs. If you really want to give TOAD a new look, update the icons. Don't change them completely from what they are, just make them look more cartoony and "friendly"- not the buttons, the graphics. That's pretty much what the other programs have done. Another thing to keep in mind - TOAD is not an app being used by people who are intimidated by computers and need to have a fun or pretty interface so no one is scared by it. It is a serious tool for professionals. If you want cute and fun, get Angry Birds for your computer. :-) (I was going to say a tool for serious professionals but realized that would knock at least a handful of us out of qualifying, myself especially included. I may be seriously professional about my work, but I am rarely serious!) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Norman Dunbar Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:08 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [toad] RE: Toolbar Visual Style default Evening Mark, On 26/04/12 17:49, Mark Lerch wrote: > ok, so that's 100% for Enhanced. This is contrary to an internal email I > got yesterday regarding that style: Marketing department? > ... > ... remove MDI, go with ribbons. Don't you dare! If you go with ribbons, I go with SQL Developer! Or I write my own "Toad", in assembler at that, with direct calls to OCI routines for added masochism! > we cite what we hear on the boards we're dismissed with "yes, but that's > just that tiny little subset and they don't represent the whole." Definitely marketing then! > ... > We don't work that way. Thus the speed, thus the warts. Not many toads are wart free, so if it's Toad then there simply has to be warts. And let's face it, it could be the most beautiful interface in the entire universe (or indeed multiverse) but if it didn't work, then it's useless. Toad works - and as a DBA, that's what I want. Something with the power of SQL*Plus but easier to use to make me more productive. Developers will see more benefits than I do, but I couldn't really be without it. -- Cheers, Norm. [TeamT] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------------------------------------------- "The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice - This electronic mail transmission and any attachment(s) are privileged and confidential and are intended only for the review of the party to whom it is addressed. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the unintended message received. Unintended transmission shall not constitute waiver of work product or any other privilege.