Re: [hercules-390] Proxy Coupling Technology
Tony Harminc <[email protected]> Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:21:56 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
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--9EOs1PSxRv56NsONz2571O2EdKTS-VKjOrHsxB6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5 October 2010 13:07, ron.hilton <[email protected]> wrote: > You raise some good points, perhaps better addressed on Hercules-advocacy. Yup - I'll continue there. 'cause it's probably going to get messy... :-) > I doubt that this would be the first time that proprietary mainframe > software has been run on Hercules, and with the appropriate licenses it > should be quite legal to do so. Well, it's unclear. IBM seems to have claimed that Hercules violates a number of IBM patents on their hardware, so that would presumably have nothing to do with what guest software is running on it. But of course IBM has made a habit of obfuscation in this regard. > On the question of patents, let me first speak to the issue of software > patentability. Although I am a strong advocate of open standards and > open-source software, I think that there is no doubt that software, > including Hercules and the programs that run on it, represents patentable > subject matter in general. We can agree to disagree. Thought for the day: what arguments in favour of the patentability of software do not also argue in favour of the patentability of movies? > And the courts, including the Supreme Court in > the recent Bilski decision, have consistently supported that conclusion. The US courts are not the only arbiter of these matters. > My advice to the open-source > community, including Hercules, would be to quit fighting a losing battle > against software patents. Instead, fight fire with fire. The best defense > against software patents is a good offense. Hercules should create or join a > "software patent commons" and actively start to build its own strong patent > portfolio. That is the way the patent system works - just like MAD > ("mutually assured destruction"). A patent is a right to exclude others from > practicing an invention. Only when both sides have a patent arsenal does > cooperation and progress occur. You know, this is rather like the advice given by Groklaw's Pamela Jones to "get a lawyer". It may well be good advice, but it is utterly infeasible for a small and unfunded group of developers to obtain patents on anything. It is virtually impossible to even think about patenting anything for under $10,000, and it's very rare to get in the door for that. It is also very difficult to maintain the open source development model while at the same time not jeopardizing patentability by early publication. Not impossible, certainly, but none of this is a good fit for the Hercules project. You've worked in at least one patent-savvy company; you surely remember those ubiquitous page-numbered notebooks, and the corporate infrastructure that was needed to comb through ordinary software development to extract patentable matter. And you are perhaps aware that there is at least one US patent pending *by someone else* on material that was published and implemented in Hercules first. There's a good chance that patent will issue, because no one has the resources to stop it even at this early stage, let alone after it's been accepted. > Regarding the PSC software, it is proprietary (e.g. copyrighted) and the > proxy-coupling technology upon which it is based is also patent-pending. But > as you correctly pointed out, that intellectual property protection applies > only to the PCT-based "software" and not to "hardware" functionality in > Hercules that exists now or may be developed in the future in response to my > proposal/invitation. Well I didn't really point that out; I don't know what PSC's pending patents purport to cover. So "for greater certainty" or "for the avoidance of doubt", as the contracts lawyers like to say, why not have your organization state clearly that it will not assert any patents related to this technology against Open Source hardware emulators? > Indeed, I would encourage any Herculean who develops a > novel PCT assist for Hercules to go right ahead and patent it if possible, see above > and assign the rights to the above-mentioned commons. Right now IBM holds > all of the cards in any potential patent dispute regarding Hercules, and > antitrust is the only counter to that. At least at PSI we had a few patents > on our side, and I suspect that helped to some extent in bringing IBM to the > bargaining table. Aside from protecting their mainframe monopoly, I think > they genuinely wanted some of PSI's novel technology. I don't want to sound like a Phil Payne, but do you really believe any of it will ever show up in an IBM product? But we digress... > Anyway, having been personally in IBM's legal cross-hairs as the founder of > PSI, I can sympathize with and am fully supportive of your or anyone else's > concerns to remain squeaky clean in this regard. I personally have never contributed code to Hercules beyond pointing out one or two bugs and how they might be fixed by someone else, mostly because I work for a software vendor, and I just don't want to complicate my life. And I've never been in IBM's cross-hairs, but I have seen them up close aiming a first warning shot at others, and it's not for the faint of heart. Certainly it gives me great admiration for those who are brave enough to fight. > But I think that what I am > proposing here is on solid legal ground > and would at the very least not make > the situation for Hercules any worse than it may or may not presently be. > But it's up to you. I'm just making the offer. I think it could be a fun > project for whomever may be interested. I'm sure it could be, and I don't wish to discourage anyone from pursuing it. Probably Hercules infrastructure for adding user modules would be the best approach for this. I don't, of course, speak for the Hercules developers, but I doubt they would be willing to put such code into the mainstream without some legal protection. Tony H. --9EOs1PSxRv56NsONz2571O2EdKTS-VKjOrHsxB6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>On 5 October 2010 13:07, ron.hilton <<a href="mailto:ron.hilton%40comcast.net">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > You raise some good points, perhaps better addressed on Hercules-advocacy.<br> <br> Yup - I'll continue there. 'cause it's probably going to get messy... :-)<br> <br> > I doubt that this would be the first time that proprietary mainframe<br> > software has been run on Hercules, and with the appropriate licenses it<br> > should be quite legal to do so.<br> <br> Well, it's unclear. IBM seems to have claimed that Hercules violates a<br> number of IBM patents on their hardware, so that would presumably have<br> nothing to do with what guest software is running on it. But of<br> course IBM has made a habit of obfuscation in this regard.<br> <br> > On the question of patents, let me first speak to the issue of software<br> > patentability. Although I am a strong advocate of open standards and<br> > open-source software, I think that there is no doubt that software,<br> > including Hercules and the programs that run on it, represents patentable<br> > subject matter in general.<br> <br> We can agree to disagree. Thought for the day: what arguments in<br> favour of the patentability of software do not also argue in favour of<br> the patentability of movies?<br> <br> > And the courts, including the Supreme Court in<br> > the recent Bilski decision, have consistently supported that conclusion.<br> <br> The US courts are not the only arbiter of these matters.<br> <br> > My advice to the open-source<br> > community, including Hercules, would be to quit fighting a losing battle<br> > against software patents. Instead, fight fire with fire. The best defense<br> > against software patents is a good offense. Hercules should create or join a<br> > "software patent commons" and actively start to build its own strong patent<br> > portfolio. That is the way the patent system works - just like MAD<br> > ("mutually assured destruction"). A patent is a right to exclude others from<br> > practicing an invention. Only when both sides have a patent arsenal does<br> > cooperation and progress occur.<br> <br> You know, this is rather like the advice given by Groklaw's Pamela<br> Jones to "get a lawyer". It may well be good advice, but it is utterly<br> infeasible for a small and unfunded group of developers to obtain<br> patents on anything. It is virtually impossible to even think about<br> patenting anything for under $10,000, and it's very rare to get in the<br> door for that. It is also very difficult to maintain the open source<br> development model while at the same time not jeopardizing<br> patentability by early publication. Not impossible, certainly, but<br> none of this is a good fit for the Hercules project.<br> <br> You've worked in at least one patent-savvy company; you surely<br> remember those ubiquitous page-numbered notebooks, and the corporate<br> infrastructure that was needed to comb through ordinary software<br> development to extract patentable matter. And you are perhaps aware<br> that there is at least one US patent pending *by someone else* on<br> material that was published and implemented in Hercules first. There's<br> a good chance that patent will issue, because no one has the resources<br> to stop it even at this early stage, let alone after it's been<br> accepted.<br> <br> > Regarding the PSC software, it is proprietary (e.g. copyrighted) and the<br> > proxy-coupling technology upon which it is based is also patent-pending. But<br> > as you correctly pointed out, that intellectual property protection applies<br> > only to the PCT-based "software" and not to "hardware" functionality in<br> > Hercules that exists now or may be developed in the future in response to my<br> > proposal/invitation.<br> <br> Well I didn't really point that out; I don't know what PSC's pending<br> patents purport to cover. So "for greater certainty" or "for the<br> avoidance of doubt", as the contracts lawyers like to say, why not<br> have your organization state clearly that it will not assert any<br> patents related to this technology against Open Source hardware<br> emulators?<br> <br> > Indeed, I would encourage any Herculean who develops a<br> > novel PCT assist for Hercules to go right ahead and patent it if possible,<br> <br> see above<br> <br> > and assign the rights to the above-mentioned commons. Right now IBM holds<br> > all of the cards in any potential patent dispute regarding Hercules, and<br> > antitrust is the only counter to that. At least at PSI we had a few patents<br> > on our side, and I suspect that helped to some extent in bringing IBM to the<br> > bargaining table. Aside from protecting their mainframe monopoly, I think<br> > they genuinely wanted some of PSI's novel technology.<br> <br> I don't want to sound like a Phil Payne, but do you really believe any<br> of it will ever show up in an IBM product? But we digress...<br> <br> > Anyway, having been personally in IBM's legal cross-hairs as the founder of<br> > PSI, I can sympathize with and am fully supportive of your or anyone else's<br> > concerns to remain squeaky clean in this regard.<br> <br> I personally have never contributed code to Hercules beyond pointing<br> out one or two bugs and how they might be fixed by someone else,<br> mostly because I work for a software vendor, and I just don't want to<br> complicate my life. And I've never been in IBM's cross-hairs, but I<br> have seen them up close aiming a first warning shot at others, and<br> it's not for the faint of heart. Certainly it gives me great<br> admiration for those who are brave enough to fight.<br> <br> > But I think that what I am<br> > proposing here is on solid legal ground<br> > and would at the very least not make<br> > the situation for Hercules any worse than it may or may not presently be.<br> > But it's up to you. I'm just making the offer. I think it could be a fun<br> > project for whomever may be interested.<br> <br> I'm sure it could be, and I don't wish to discourage anyone from<br> pursuing it. Probably Hercules infrastructure for adding user modules<br> would be the best approach for this. I don't, of course, speak for the<br> Hercules developers, but I doubt they would be willing to put such<br> code into the mainstream without some legal protection.<br> <br> Tony H.<br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re: [hercules-390] Proxy Coupling Technology" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re: [hercules-390] Proxy Coupling Technology"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvY2lpcTdnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk1NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyODYzMDI5MjQ-?act=reply&messageNum=955">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaGpqZHVvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI4NjMwMjkyNA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/954;_ylc=X3oDMTMyYmxua2NyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk1NQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyODYzMDI5MjQEdHBjSWQDOTU0">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">2</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYnFqMXA4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI4NjMwMjkyMw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcmY0dDlmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjg2MzAyOTI0" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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