RE: Innovation
"Rocky" <[email protected]> Sat, 26 May 2012 20:21:08 +0300
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--LwJYMaztMtn2SCKoZbIDwN42v6m7xQduAgLwPry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Roger - I think I am challenging G-D here. You and your friends Invented Hercules - So its almost unholy to disagree with you. First of all - it's the greatest. I love it and super thanks for all your efforts. Question! If you can remember way back when you started what was your objective? To create an INTEL mainframe? that could do things differently (than the old one) or to present a pretty accurate simulation of what we had back then ( and today) on the "Peoples Hardware"? I always thought it was the latter. The day I retired I thought - Hell - I'll never be able to play with my lifetime hobby again. And then I discovered Hercules. I became the same 22 year old kid I was back then and now I have time to do all the things I never could in the old days. If we make it an INTEL mainframe - then we have plenty of tools available. Plenty of debugging tools for "C". Why write in BAL etc. when I have so many nice modern tools - Oracle, Progress, "C", Java, net - Not much need for my old IMS , DB2 and COBOL for real current day applications unless I am talking about global companies with tremendous investments in development. Maybe I am a purist --- But I like the idea of being able to develop all the tools we need - some of them better than the ones IBM and friends developed without cutting corners. I like the fun of being able to make it work the way it could have worked 20, 30, 40 years ago. When people tell me they use nice modern editors on the PC. and then upload them or Just cancel the machine and reboot when they have to change something that turns me off. Maybe Review isn't as sophisticated as some modern PC editors, But that's a mainframe proper--- There are certainly lots of things that we can do differently today ---- more efficiently, but if we take that to the nth level then there is probably no need for Hercules at all -- PLEASE never let that happen. And that wouldn't be half as satisfying for me as reinventing/ improving the wheel we had then. I am really very curious as to what the original intentions were when Hercules first popped in to your mind. Roc _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation On 5/24/2012 2:41 PM, John P. Hartmann wrote: > Explain to me where that is different from the interactive > debuggers IBM peddles. MVSDDT makes novel use of the Hercules-unique CTCI implementation to provide communication between the server and the Java client, without the need for a TCP/IP stack on MVS. Now that's innovation! And it's something which cannot conveniently be done on a real mainframe. Another innovative feature of Hercules is the fact that it is freely available for anyone to use. This in itself encourages innovation, because products will be developed that otherwise would not have been. Intel-based mainframes have been traditionally viewed merely as inferior clones of the IBM mainframe (a view largely encouraged by IBM, who in a press release famously dismissed Hercules as "not really any different from those who seek to market cheap knock-offs of brand-name clothing or apparel") http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/26/ibm_turbohercules_response/ The really interesting developments will focus on those things an Intel-based mainframe can do that a real mainframe cannot (or at least not conveniently). But it will be an uphill struggle against IBM's understandable desire to squash any innovation that threatens its mainframe monopoly. Roger Bowler Hercules "the people's mainframe" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --LwJYMaztMtn2SCKoZbIDwN42v6m7xQduAgLwPry Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Hi Roger -<br> I think I am challenging G-D here.<br> You and your friends Invented Hercules - So its almost unholy to disagree<br> with you.<br> First of all - it's the greatest. I love it and super thanks for all your<br> efforts.<br> <br> Question! <br> If you can remember way back when you started what was your objective?<br> <br> To create an INTEL mainframe? that could do things differently (than the old<br> one) or to present a pretty accurate simulation of what we had back then (<br> and today) on the "Peoples Hardware"?<br> <br> I always thought it was the latter. <br> The day I retired I thought - Hell - I'll never be able to play with my<br> lifetime hobby again.<br> And then I discovered Hercules. I became the same 22 year old kid I was back<br> then and now I have time to do all the things I never could in the old days.<br> <br> If we make it an INTEL mainframe - then we have plenty of tools available.<br> Plenty of debugging tools for "C".<br> <br> Why write in BAL etc. when I have so many nice modern tools - Oracle,<br> Progress, "C", Java, net - Not much need for my old IMS , DB2 and COBOL for<br> real current day applications unless I am talking about global companies<br> with tremendous investments in development.<br> Maybe I am a purist --- But I like the idea of being able to develop all the<br> tools we need - some of them better than the ones IBM and friends developed<br> without cutting corners. I like the fun of being able to make it work the<br> way it could have worked 20, 30, 40 years ago.<br> <br> When people tell me they use nice modern editors on the PC. and then upload<br> them or Just cancel the machine and reboot when they have to change<br> something that turns me off. <br> <br> Maybe Review isn't as sophisticated as some modern PC editors, But that's a<br> mainframe proper---<br> There are certainly lots of things that we can do differently today ----<br> more efficiently, but if we take that to the nth level then there is<br> probably no need for Hercules at all -- PLEASE never let that happen.<br> And that wouldn't be half as satisfying for me as reinventing/ improving<br> the wheel we had then.<br> <br> <br> I am really very curious as to what the original intentions were when<br> Hercules first popped in to your mind.<br> Roc<br> <br> _____ <br> <br> From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler<br> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:27 PM<br> To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> Subject: Re: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> <br> On 5/24/2012 2:41 PM, John P. Hartmann wrote:<br> > Explain to me where that is different from the interactive<br> > debuggers IBM peddles.<br> <br> MVSDDT makes novel use of the Hercules-unique CTCI implementation to <br> provide communication between the server and the Java client, without the <br> need for a TCP/IP stack on MVS.<br> <br> Now that's innovation! And it's something which cannot conveniently be done <br> on a real mainframe.<br> <br> Another innovative feature of Hercules is the fact that it is freely <br> available for anyone to use. This in itself encourages innovation, because <br> products will be developed that otherwise would not have been.<br> <br> Intel-based mainframes have been traditionally viewed merely as inferior <br> clones of the IBM mainframe (a view largely encouraged by IBM, who in a <br> press release famously dismissed Hercules as "not really any different from <br> those who seek to market cheap knock-offs of brand-name clothing or<br> apparel")<br> <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/26/ibm_turbohercules_response/">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/26/ibm_turbohercules_response/</a><br> <br> The really interesting developments will focus on those things an <br> Intel-based mainframe can do that a real mainframe cannot (or at least not <br> conveniently). But it will be an uphill struggle against IBM's <br> understandable desire to squash any innovation that threatens its mainframe <br> monopoly.<br> <br> Roger Bowler<br> Hercules "the people's mainframe"<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Innovation" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Innovation"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwZ3MyajJtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTYEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzM4MDUyOTMx?act=reply&messageNum=1016">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaWM3bGRnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMzODA1MjkzMQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/1009;_ylc=X3oDMTM0ZWVwbWpsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTYEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMzM4MDUyOTMxBHRwY0lkAzEwMDk-">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">8</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNXJnZTJqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMzODA1MjkzMQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzZpYWpqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzM4MDUyOTMx" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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