Re: Innovation
Harold Grovesteen <[email protected]> Mon, 28 May 2012 08:47:34 -0500
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On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 12:58 +0200, Roger Bowler wrote:
>
> On 26/05/2012 20:21, ron.hilton wrote:
> > I guess I will reiterate my earlier suggestion to create a Hercules
> patent
> > commons. Patents are the only commercially meaningful metric of
> innovation,
> > and the only asset ever likely to offer any negotiating leverage
> with IBM.
>
> Ron,
>
> I'm sure you are right. But patents are a rich man's game.
>
> You have generously offered to handle the initial filing, but
> subsequent
> costs of obtaining a patent have been estimated here at US$10,000.
> Bearing
> in mind that IBM have already threatened Hercules with approximately
> 170
> patents, my guess is that one patent is not going to be sufficient to
> counter that. We must be talking about a minimum portfolio of say 10
> or 20
> patents to have any chance of counterbalancing such an arsenal. So we
> are
> already talking about figures in the US$100,000 to US$200,000 range.
>
> And we cannot ignore the cost of litigation. There doesn't seem much
> point
> in taking out patents if IBM knows we don't have the money to defend
> them.
> IBM have for all practical purposes a bottomless well of funds for
> legal
> expenses, and we have seen from previous cases (PSI, TurboHercules)
> that
> their tactic is to spin out the case with complex legal arguments
> until the
> opponent runs out of money and gives up. Legal fees in recent cases
> have
> been estimated to be in the millions of US$.
>
> Who is going to put up this sort of money? Not the Herculeans, that's
> for
> sure. The only companies which can underwrite this sort of cost are
> the
> mega corporations - HP, EMC, Microsoft, Google. But these companies
> have as
> their objective the acquisition of intellectual property rights, and
> they
> would require that ownership of the patents be assigned to them as
> part of
> any funding deal. You would have to come up with a pretty novel
> argument to
> persuade any of these companies to put up money to give away the IP to
> a
> patent commons.
>
> Sorry if I sound negative, but I do believe that the system is
> heavily
> stacked against the small inventor. The mega corporations, while happy
> to
> draw freely from the abundant well of open source, act as if only they
> have
> the right to commercialize and profit from innovation.
>
> Regards,
> Roger Bowler
> Hercules "the people's mainframe"
>
I agree with Roger that patents are a "rich man's game." The recent
Oracle vs. Google lawsuit is instructive about how effective though
patents may be when you have a symmetric attack (two rich men) using
patents, as opposed to an asymmetric one (rich man vs. poor man). The
majority of Oracle's patents were thrown out by the Patent Office as
invalid. The jury actually found no patent infringement by Google of
the two remaining patents.
The issue may be that software patents (which is what Oracle was using
as its weapon) are not as effective as hardware patents. Or real juries
may just not really be able to sort through the issues. It will be
interesting to observe how effective patents actually are in some of the
other lawsuits out there related to Android.
And I think I am going to disagree with Ron on patents being the only
commercially meaningful metric of innovation. First, I believe they are
a metric of "claimed" innovation used to threaten others with claims of
failure to innovate. Proving a negative can be difficult as Oracle
discovered.
Further, patents are really claims to being the first to innovate in a
_certain way_ (or first to claim to have innovated by filing first,
depending on your jurisdiction). A solution that has the same result
but done a different way is not infringement. For this reason, I think
software patents are much more difficult to defend than perhaps hardware
ones. The two solutions can be equally innovative. If you read the
patent infringement jury instructions
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-1153.pdf
in the Oracle vs. Google case, this is clear.
All of this is moot when dealing with an accuser of infringement whose
financial strength is significantly larger than the accused. As Roger
said, the patent system is fundamentally stacked against the individual
or small organization from effective participation. This result is the
exact opposite of the original intent of patents.
Harold Grovesteen
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<p>On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 12:58 +0200, Roger Bowler wrote:<br>
> <br>
> On 26/05/2012 20:21, ron.hilton wrote:<br>
> > I guess I will reiterate my earlier suggestion to create a Hercules<br>
> patent<br>
> > commons. Patents are the only commercially meaningful metric of<br>
> innovation,<br>
> > and the only asset ever likely to offer any negotiating leverage<br>
> with IBM.<br>
> <br>
> Ron,<br>
> <br>
> I'm sure you are right. But patents are a rich man's game.<br>
> <br>
> You have generously offered to handle the initial filing, but<br>
> subsequent <br>
> costs of obtaining a patent have been estimated here at US$10,000.<br>
> Bearing <br>
> in mind that IBM have already threatened Hercules with approximately<br>
> 170 <br>
> patents, my guess is that one patent is not going to be sufficient to <br>
> counter that. We must be talking about a minimum portfolio of say 10<br>
> or 20 <br>
> patents to have any chance of counterbalancing such an arsenal. So we<br>
> are <br>
> already talking about figures in the US$100,000 to US$200,000 range.<br>
> <br>
> And we cannot ignore the cost of litigation. There doesn't seem much<br>
> point <br>
> in taking out patents if IBM knows we don't have the money to defend<br>
> them. <br>
> IBM have for all practical purposes a bottomless well of funds for<br>
> legal <br>
> expenses, and we have seen from previous cases (PSI, TurboHercules)<br>
> that <br>
> their tactic is to spin out the case with complex legal arguments<br>
> until the <br>
> opponent runs out of money and gives up. Legal fees in recent cases<br>
> have <br>
> been estimated to be in the millions of US$.<br>
> <br>
> Who is going to put up this sort of money? Not the Herculeans, that's<br>
> for <br>
> sure. The only companies which can underwrite this sort of cost are<br>
> the <br>
> mega corporations - HP, EMC, Microsoft, Google. But these companies<br>
> have as <br>
> their objective the acquisition of intellectual property rights, and<br>
> they <br>
> would require that ownership of the patents be assigned to them as<br>
> part of <br>
> any funding deal. You would have to come up with a pretty novel<br>
> argument to <br>
> persuade any of these companies to put up money to give away the IP to<br>
> a <br>
> patent commons.<br>
> <br>
> Sorry if I sound negative, but I do believe that the system is<br>
> heavily <br>
> stacked against the small inventor. The mega corporations, while happy<br>
> to <br>
> draw freely from the abundant well of open source, act as if only they<br>
> have <br>
> the right to commercialize and profit from innovation.<br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Roger Bowler<br>
> Hercules "the people's mainframe"<br>
> <br>
I agree with Roger that patents are a "rich man's game." The recent<br>
Oracle vs. Google lawsuit is instructive about how effective though<br>
patents may be when you have a symmetric attack (two rich men) using<br>
patents, as opposed to an asymmetric one (rich man vs. poor man). The<br>
majority of Oracle's patents were thrown out by the Patent Office as<br>
invalid. The jury actually found no patent infringement by Google of<br>
the two remaining patents. <br>
<br>
The issue may be that software patents (which is what Oracle was using<br>
as its weapon) are not as effective as hardware patents. Or real juries<br>
may just not really be able to sort through the issues. It will be<br>
interesting to observe how effective patents actually are in some of the<br>
other lawsuits out there related to Android.<br>
<br>
And I think I am going to disagree with Ron on patents being the only<br>
commercially meaningful metric of innovation. First, I believe they are<br>
a metric of "claimed" innovation used to threaten others with claims of<br>
failure to innovate. Proving a negative can be difficult as Oracle<br>
discovered.<br>
<br>
Further, patents are really claims to being the first to innovate in a<br>
_certain way_ (or first to claim to have innovated by filing first,<br>
depending on your jurisdiction). A solution that has the same result<br>
but done a different way is not infringement. For this reason, I think<br>
software patents are much more difficult to defend than perhaps hardware<br>
ones. The two solutions can be equally innovative. If you read the<br>
patent infringement jury instructions<br>
<a href="http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-1153.pdf">http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-1153.pdf</a> <br>
in the Oracle vs. Google case, this is clear. <br>
<br>
All of this is moot when dealing with an accuser of infringement whose<br>
financial strength is significantly larger than the accused. As Roger<br>
said, the patent system is fundamentally stacked against the individual<br>
or small organization from effective participation. This result is the<br>
exact opposite of the original intent of patents.<br>
<br>
Harold Grovesteen<br>
<br>
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