RE: Innovation

Harold Grovesteen <[email protected]> Mon, 28 May 2012 09:27:40 -0500
Newsgroups	gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy
Message-ID	<[email protected]>
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Exactly my point.  The "how" is where the innovation comes in.  Roger's
point is that there is really no practical way of defining or protecting
this innovation in Hercules with the patent system due to the cost of
entry.  

As a software implementation, such a patent would only be valid where
software patents are legitimate.  Such would not be the case in the EU.
I find it very difficult to assert that a software implementation can
infringe on a hardware one.  When does microcode become software and no
longer protected where software is not patentable?  The "how" is very
different.  The reverse side of that coin is just as murky as limiting
to just jurisdictions where software patents are legitimate.  And if the
Oracle vs. Google trial is any example, equally difficult to protect,
assuming you have the resource to attempt to do it.  

As an open source software project, just what would we be trying to
protect and from whom?  As near as I can tell, a patent related to
Hercules by one or more of its developers appears to give some chest
thumping rights (claims to innovation) in some quarters but that's it. 

Harold Grovesteen

On Thu, 2012-05-24 at 22:56 -0600, ron.hilton wrote:
>   
> Anzani is displaying the same ignorant mentality that regarded the PCM
> industry as mere "clones" of the mainframe. There are plenty of
> avenues for
> innovation in emulation. Downward compatibility and forward progress
> are not
> at all mutually exclusive. If so, IBM's own mainframes would be just
> as
> devoid of innovation as the non-IBM alternatives that Anzani derides.
> Furthermore, emulation itself, apart from the architecture being
> emulated,
> is a fertile area for innovation. The "what" may be pre-defined, but
> the
> "how" is wide open. Is biological "cloning" devoid of innovation? Of
> course
> not. I was very proud of what we accomplished at Amdahl and PSI. There
> was
> tremendous innovation displayed by both of those companies, and I'm
> sure the
> same is true of Hercules.
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 2:48 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation
> 
> "we do not think that mimicking IBM's instruction set architectures on
> commodity OEM hardware is in any way innovative"
> 
> Thus wrote Mark Anzani, IBM's System z Chief Technology Officer, in a 
> letter to TurboHercules dated November 4, 2009.
> 
> Here's why he's wrong:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/message/13183
> http://home.comcast.net/~mvsddt/
> 
> "The MVS Dynamic Debug Tool is a client/server debugging tool for MVS
> 3.8 
> running under Hercules. MVS DDT consists of two major components:
> - The server which executes as a batch job running the MVSDDT program
> on MVS
> -The client which is a Java application running on any platform
> supporting 
> version 6 of the Java Runtime Environment"
> 
> This is a fine example of independent innovation made possible by a 
> freely-available virtual mainframe.
> 
> Roger Bowler
> Hercules "the people's mainframe"

> 
> 
> 




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      <p>Exactly my point.  The &quot;how&quot; is where the innovation comes in.  Roger's<br>
point is that there is really no practical way of defining or protecting<br>
this innovation in Hercules with the patent system due to the cost of<br>
entry.  <br>
<br>
As a software implementation, such a patent would only be valid where<br>
software patents are legitimate.  Such would not be the case in the EU.<br>
I find it very difficult to assert that a software implementation can<br>
infringe on a hardware one.  When does microcode become software and no<br>
longer protected where software is not patentable?  The &quot;how&quot; is very<br>
different.  The reverse side of that coin is just as murky as limiting<br>
to just jurisdictions where software patents are legitimate.  And if the<br>
Oracle vs. Google trial is any example, equally difficult to protect,<br>
assuming you have the resource to attempt to do it.  <br>
<br>
As an open source software project, just what would we be trying to<br>
protect and from whom?  As near as I can tell, a patent related to<br>
Hercules by one or more of its developers appears to give some chest<br>
thumping rights (claims to innovation) in some quarters but that's it. <br>
<br>
Harold Grovesteen<br>
<br>
On Thu, 2012-05-24 at 22:56 -0600, ron.hilton wrote:<br>
&gt;   <br>
&gt; Anzani is displaying the same ignorant mentality that regarded the PCM<br>
&gt; industry as mere &quot;clones&quot; of the mainframe. There are plenty of<br>
&gt; avenues for<br>
&gt; innovation in emulation. Downward compatibility and forward progress<br>
&gt; are not<br>
&gt; at all mutually exclusive. If so, IBM's own mainframes would be just<br>
&gt; as<br>
&gt; devoid of innovation as the non-IBM alternatives that Anzani derides.<br>
&gt; Furthermore, emulation itself, apart from the architecture being<br>
&gt; emulated,<br>
&gt; is a fertile area for innovation. The &quot;what&quot; may be pre-defined, but<br>
&gt; the<br>
&gt; &quot;how&quot; is wide open. Is biological &quot;cloning&quot; devoid of innovation? Of<br>
&gt; course<br>
&gt; not. I was very proud of what we accomplished at Amdahl and PSI. There<br>
&gt; was<br>
&gt; tremendous innovation displayed by both of those companies, and I'm<br>
&gt; sure the<br>
&gt; same is true of Hercules.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _____ <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br>
&gt; [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 2:48 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;we do not think that mimicking IBM's instruction set architectures on<br>
&gt; commodity OEM hardware is in any way innovative&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thus wrote Mark Anzani, IBM's System z Chief Technology Officer, in a <br>
&gt; letter to TurboHercules dated November 4, 2009.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Here's why he's wrong:<br>
&gt; <a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/message/13183">http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/message/13183</a><br>
&gt; <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~mvsddt/">http://home.comcast.net/~mvsddt/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;The MVS Dynamic Debug Tool is a client/server debugging tool for MVS<br>
&gt; 3.8 <br>
&gt; running under Hercules. MVS DDT consists of two major components:<br>
&gt; - The server which executes as a batch job running the MVSDDT program<br>
&gt; on MVS<br>
&gt; -The client which is a Java application running on any platform<br>
&gt; supporting <br>
&gt; version 6 of the Java Runtime Environment&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This is a fine example of independent innovation made possible by a <br>
&gt; freely-available virtual mainframe.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Roger Bowler<br>
&gt; Hercules &quot;the people's mainframe&quot;<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
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