RE: Innovation
"ron.hilton" <[email protected]> Fri, 1 Jun 2012 09:24:52 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <148336A360594A81855BBEDB9EB883A9@ronhp1> |
--JrMWXmXOPyoMvjijVGLQVEiao1zh2wtRFCPAXOB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In essence, yes. To quote my original posting to this forum on the subject (Nov 4, 2011): "Basically, they need to think like a troll, but with a white hat for the good of Hercules, not a black hat for their own benefit." BTW, I reject the term "troll" as a pejorative in this context. The truly bad actors are those who file frivolous patent infringement suits based on weak patents without a shred of evidence that the defendant is practicing the invention. That is not at all what I am suggesting. I believe that the Hercules community has a great deal to contribute in the way of mainframe design innovation. Just because it is for non-commercial purposes does not lessen its importance or validity. _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Harold Grovesteen Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 4:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation Now I understand. You are suggesting the Hercules developers become patent trolls. On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:32 -0600, ron.hilton wrote: > > The goal of a Hercules patent effort would be two-fold: > > 1. Induce IBM to license its mainframe IP to Hercules, including > patents and software, at low or no cost for _non-commercial_ use only > (a > "hobbyist" license). > 2. Receive enough cash royalties from IBM to return a profit to > Hercules investors who underwrote the cost of patent filing and > litigation. > > Unlike past ventures, such as PSI and TurboHercules, the goal would > _not_ be > to create a competitive _commercial_ alternative to the IBM mainframe. > That > is a much taller order, and indeed has proven difficult if not > impossible to > do without a committed, deep-pocketed corporate partner, and/or > government > intervention in the form of rigorous antitrust enforcement. > > _____ > > From: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rocky > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:14 AM > To: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation > > Ron > > What you are saying seems very straight forward. > But where do we fit into that. Where does Hercules fit into that. > How does that force IBM into recognizing Hercules as Legitmate > platform for > Z/os or any other propriitory product of theirs. > > IBM covers the whole market. They make ,maket and sell hardware, > firmware, > and Software. > > It seems that we are trying to cut into their HARDWARE market with our > firmware. > That would have adverse effects on their software as well - Would > probably > make a mess of their pricing structure. > I don;t see them helping the Hercules team to do that. > > Innovation is fine - The software developers can create new products > or > improve existing ones and IBM would probably be very happy to help us. > > Hardware innovation is also fine. Can our engineers improve their > hardware? > > But just building a competing product does not seem to be the answer. > > Anti-Trust laws etc. might help but why? > Why commercialize Hercules except for profit. > And then who is going to profit? > > As to the current discussions about the Dynamic debugger and using an > interface on the PC --- IBM already did that. > IBM DEBUG has that ability. > > That again is not innovation but just copying an idea. > Its a real breakthru for the older operating systems and a very nice > piece > of work. > But not a market breakthru. > > Not sure where that leaves us. > Developing products for older operating systems? not a real market. > > :-) > > Roc > > _____ > > From: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of ron.hilton > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:13 AM > To: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation > > It only takes one good patent, indeed just a single claim within that > patent, which has the potential to block one's adversary, to gain a > commanding advantage. Provisional patent applications can be filed at > very > little cost. Then the next step is to get sufficient investor funding > during > the 1-year pendency of the provisional to underwrite obtaining the > actual > patent. During the several-year pendency of the actual patent > application, > the goal would be to raise additional funds for possible litigation, > and/or > find a patent litigator willing to take the case on a contingency > basis. All > the while, negotiations could be opened with IBM to discuss licensing > terms. > But it all hinges on developing some technology that the mainframe > market in > general and IBM in particular wants and needs. > > _____ > > From: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Harold > Grovesteen > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:57 AM > To: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation > > On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 17:42 +0200, Roger Bowler wrote: > > > > On 28/05/2012 16:27, Harold Grovesteen wrote: > > > As an open source software project, just what would we be trying > to > > > protect and from whom? As near as I can tell, a patent related to > > > Hercules by one or more of its developers appears to give some > chest > > > thumping rights (claims to innovation) in some quarters but that's > > it. > > > > Harold, > > > > It's not so much about protecting invention but rather about > achieving > > a > > result unobtainable by other means - specifically forcing IBM to > > recognize > > Hercules as a legitimate platform for running z/OS. > > > > Ron is suggesting that the patent system could be used to gain some > > bargaining power which could succeed where the anti-trust route > > failed. > > I get what Ron is saying, but I fail to see the logic. > > > > Unfortunately however the system is skewed in favor of the party > with > > the > > deepest pockets. > > > > Regards, > > Roger Bowler > > Hercules "the people's mainframe" > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --JrMWXmXOPyoMvjijVGLQVEiao1zh2wtRFCPAXOB Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>In essence, yes. To quote my original posting to this forum on the subject<br> (Nov 4, 2011):<br> <br> "Basically, they need to think like a troll, but with a white hat for the<br> good of Hercules, not a black hat for their own benefit."<br> <br> BTW, I reject the term "troll" as a pejorative in this context. The truly<br> bad actors are those who file frivolous patent infringement suits based on<br> weak patents without a shred of evidence that the defendant is practicing<br> the invention. That is not at all what I am suggesting. I believe that the<br> Hercules community has a great deal to contribute in the way of mainframe<br> design innovation. Just because it is for non-commercial purposes does not<br> lessen its importance or validity.<br> <br> _____ <br> <br> From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>] On Behalf Of Harold Grovesteen<br> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 4:07 AM<br> To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> <br> Now I understand. You are suggesting the Hercules developers become<br> patent trolls.<br> <br> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:32 -0600, ron.hilton wrote:<br> > <br> > The goal of a Hercules patent effort would be two-fold:<br> > <br> > 1. Induce IBM to license its mainframe IP to Hercules, including<br> > patents and software, at low or no cost for _non-commercial_ use only<br> > (a<br> > "hobbyist" license).<br> > 2. Receive enough cash royalties from IBM to return a profit to<br> > Hercules investors who underwrote the cost of patent filing and<br> > litigation.<br> > <br> > Unlike past ventures, such as PSI and TurboHercules, the goal would<br> > _not_ be<br> > to create a competitive _commercial_ alternative to the IBM mainframe.<br> > That<br> > is a much taller order, and indeed has proven difficult if not<br> > impossible to<br> > do without a committed, deep-pocketed corporate partner, and/or<br> > government<br> > intervention in the form of rigorous antitrust enforcement.<br> > <br> > _____ <br> > <br> > From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rocky<br> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:14 AM<br> > To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> > <br> > Ron <br> > <br> > What you are saying seems very straight forward.<br> > But where do we fit into that. Where does Hercules fit into that.<br> > How does that force IBM into recognizing Hercules as Legitmate<br> > platform for<br> > Z/os or any other propriitory product of theirs.<br> > <br> > IBM covers the whole market. They make ,maket and sell hardware,<br> > firmware,<br> > and Software.<br> > <br> > It seems that we are trying to cut into their HARDWARE market with our<br> > firmware.<br> > That would have adverse effects on their software as well - Would<br> > probably<br> > make a mess of their pricing structure.<br> > I don;t see them helping the Hercules team to do that.<br> > <br> > Innovation is fine - The software developers can create new products<br> > or<br> > improve existing ones and IBM would probably be very happy to help us.<br> > <br> > Hardware innovation is also fine. Can our engineers improve their<br> > hardware?<br> > <br> > But just building a competing product does not seem to be the answer.<br> > <br> > Anti-Trust laws etc. might help but why? <br> > Why commercialize Hercules except for profit.<br> > And then who is going to profit?<br> > <br> > As to the current discussions about the Dynamic debugger and using an<br> > interface on the PC --- IBM already did that.<br> > IBM DEBUG has that ability. <br> > <br> > That again is not innovation but just copying an idea. <br> > Its a real breakthru for the older operating systems and a very nice<br> > piece<br> > of work.<br> > But not a market breakthru.<br> > <br> > Not sure where that leaves us. <br> > Developing products for older operating systems? not a real market.<br> > <br> > :-)<br> > <br> > Roc<br> > <br> > _____ <br> > <br> > From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of ron.hilton<br> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:13 AM<br> > To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> > <br> > It only takes one good patent, indeed just a single claim within that<br> > patent, which has the potential to block one's adversary, to gain a<br> > commanding advantage. Provisional patent applications can be filed at<br> > very<br> > little cost. Then the next step is to get sufficient investor funding<br> > during<br> > the 1-year pendency of the provisional to underwrite obtaining the<br> > actual<br> > patent. During the several-year pendency of the actual patent<br> > application,<br> > the goal would be to raise additional funds for possible litigation,<br> > and/or<br> > find a patent litigator willing to take the case on a contingency<br> > basis. All<br> > the while, negotiations could be opened with IBM to discuss licensing<br> > terms.<br> > But it all hinges on developing some technology that the mainframe<br> > market in<br> > general and IBM in particular wants and needs.<br> > <br> > _____ <br> > <br> > From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Harold<br> > Grovesteen<br> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:57 AM<br> > To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> > Subject: Re: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> > <br> > On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 17:42 +0200, Roger Bowler wrote:<br> > > <br> > > On 28/05/2012 16:27, Harold Grovesteen wrote:<br> > > > As an open source software project, just what would we be trying<br> > to<br> > > > protect and from whom? As near as I can tell, a patent related to<br> > > > Hercules by one or more of its developers appears to give some<br> > chest<br> > > > thumping rights (claims to innovation) in some quarters but that's<br> > > it.<br> > > <br> > > Harold,<br> > > <br> > > It's not so much about protecting invention but rather about<br> > achieving<br> > > a <br> > > result unobtainable by other means - specifically forcing IBM to<br> > > recognize <br> > > Hercules as a legitimate platform for running z/OS.<br> > > <br> > > Ron is suggesting that the patent system could be used to gain some <br> > > bargaining power which could succeed where the anti-trust route<br> > > failed.<br> > <br> > I get what Ron is saying, but I fail to see the logic.<br> > > <br> > > Unfortunately however the system is skewed in favor of the party<br> > with<br> > > the <br> > > deepest pockets.<br> > > <br> > > Regards,<br> > > Roger Bowler<br> > > Hercules "the people's mainframe"<br> > > <br> > > <br> > > <br> > > <br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Innovation" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Innovation"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwaDA0bDdqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzEwMzIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzM4NTY0Mjk5?act=reply&messageNum=1032">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGduZjUxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMzODU2NDI5OQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/1009;_ylc=X3oDMTM0NXU4MDh0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzEwMzIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMzM4NTY0Mjk5BHRwY0lkAzEwMDk-">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">24</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYm01bTl2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMzODU2NDI5OQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMGtnNmI0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzM4NTY0Mjk5" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a> <div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy-traditional-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id="ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4083586/grpspId=1705007709/msgId=1032/stime=1338564299/nc1=3848643/nc2=5191953/nc3=5898810" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } a { color: #1e66ae; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mlmsg a { color: #1E66AE; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; } --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html> <!-- end group email --> --JrMWXmXOPyoMvjijVGLQVEiao1zh2wtRFCPAXOB--