Re: Using Breve, Digital Space, Framsticks et al
Tom Barbalet <[email protected]> Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:51:39 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.graphics.fluidiom |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--===============0012883637== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-10--320181409 --Apple-Mail-10--320181409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed > hey Tom, aren't you talking in your podcast about polygons and things? > isn't Noble Ape an ideal candidate for merging with these > environments? Short answer - yes. I've been talking about a DLL version of Noble Ape for about... two =20 years now... for some interface to Digital Space. In a similar =20 timeframe talking with Jon about Breve. I'm not sure if you have heard the end of Jon's Biota Chat, but I =20 talk there about the three directions of Noble Ape. One involves =20 potentially including Noble Apes in graphical forms into something =20 like Digital Space. To be candid, I think INTEL wanted something =20 super low-profile for their demonstrations. But that doesn't mean =20 aside from a low-profile scene graph interface I couldn't also =20 include a high-fiber scene graph like DS. The other two projects would, on one end, require a current Noble Ape =20= like graphic interface for Apple generic handheld and also, at the =20 same time, potentially super 3dized version or current Noble Ape =20 graphics for the hyper-threaded over-network version. This is TBD. So the good news is the hyper-threaded over-network version is nearly =20= ready for release. This still brings into question whether that =20 version will be on the DLL/library or whether it will be the old =20 version etc. In short, by discarding your internals, you are in a slightly better =20 place for a port to DS/Breve than I am currently with Noble Ape. But =20 like all hobbyist open source development with time, everything =20 should be sorted out with Noble Ape and all versions should be =20 compatible and able to be completely skin-less for DS/Breve integration. Best regards, Tom Barbalet. On Sep 23, 2007, at 2:32 PM, Gerald de Jong wrote: > hey Tom, aren't you talking in your podcast about polygons and things? > isn't Noble Ape an ideal candidate for merging with these > environments? > > On 9/23/07, Gerald de Jong <[email protected]> wrote: >> Tom, >> >> good that you mention this right now. i was just thinking about what >> step to take next and i had decided on getting something graphical to >> appear. >> >> on the one hand, D@H is more non-visual than visual, because all of >> the evolution happens in the storm of numbers inside the chips while >> nobody's watching, so any way to make visualization of the results >> easier or snazzier would be good. >> >> i could start sniffing around to see how these things might be done >> with the different frameworks you mention, but if any of you have =20 >> some >> helpful hints, inside info, particularly good URLs, motivational >> arguments, i'm all ears. if none of them make enough sense i can >> easily fall back on my trusty JOGL interfacing. >> >> -G >> >> On 9/23/07, Tom Barbalet <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Howdy Gerald, >>> >>> If you are starting from scratch from the low-level end, it might =20= >>> be an >>> ideal time to experiment with the environment and graphics =20 >>> engines that are >>> always looking for projects such as DaH. >>> >>> Have you considered using Breve or Digital Space for the graphics =20= >>> and >>> environment? I think Framsticks might also enable you to create =20 >>> the body >>> properties and the physics and leave the rest to their =20 >>> environment engine. >>> >>> I know Bruce is dying for an artificial life simulator in Digital =20= >>> Space. It >>> might be a good investigation/implementation project. It might also >>> instigate a native Mac version of Digital Space. Breve is already >>> multi-platform. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Tom Barbalet. >>> >>> >>> On Sep 23, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Gerald de Jong wrote: >>> >>> hi Sven! >>> >>> it's great to get some feedback about what i'm doing because it =20 >>> really >>> motivates me to continue. i'm really starting to have fun with this >>> from-scratch project because it's teaching me about what tensegrity >>> is. >>> >>> your first issue is with how the collision with the floor is =20 >>> handled, >>> and i think you're probably right. thanks for bringing it up. i >>> suppose the push must happen in the direction of the bar that is =20 >>> being >>> lifted above the floor. feel free to make a suggestion about how it >>> should be handled. i'm sure i can proceed with lots of other things >>> and then eventually come back and get this thing just right, if =20 >>> we can >>> work out a sufficiently authentic way. >>> >>> the slack issue is certainly an interesting one, but i think i'm on >>> the right track by having the notion of an "ideal cable" be that of >>> something completely elastic. i could be wrong (and i will =20 >>> definitely >>> find out if that's the case) but i think that tensegrity can be =20 >>> built >>> on the basis of these always-pull elastic cables. >>> >>> if you think it's really important to explore systems that can =20 >>> contain >>> slack it will be possible to make it work either way, in a pluggable >>> fashion. >>> >>> On 9/23/07, Sven Heinz <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I am a little bit confused regarding your handling of gravity =20 >>> you said, if >>> one end is below ground both ends are pushed, but would that not =20 >>> cancel out >>> rotational movement preventing the bars from tipping over? >>> >>> And about slack, as the appearance of slack is one of the major =20 >>> signs that a >>> construct fails tensigrity I think constructs with cables that =20 >>> approach >>> zero length should be elimated from the evolution process. >>> -- >>> Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh=F6rt? >>> Der kanns mit allen: >>> http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=20= >>> ----- >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft >>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fluidiom-code mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gerald de Jong >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.groovyactors.org >>> http://www.darwinathome.org >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=20= >>> ----- >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft >>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fluidiom-code mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code >>> >>> --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- =20 >>> --- --- --- >>> --- >>> Noble Ape http://nobleape.com/sim/ Ape Reality >>> http://nobleape.com/reality/ >>> Community http://biota.org/podcast/ Tom Barbalet http://=20 >>> nobleape.com/tom/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=20= >>> ----- >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft >>> Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fluidiom-code mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gerald de Jong >> [email protected] >> http://www.groovyactors.org >> http://www.darwinathome.org >> > > > --=20 > Gerald de Jong > [email protected] > http://www.groovyactors.org > http://www.darwinathome.org > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20= > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Fluidiom-code mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- =20= --- --- --- Noble Ape http://nobleape.com/sim/ Ape Reality http://=20 nobleape.com/reality/ Community http://biota.org/podcast/ Tom Barbalet http://=20 nobleape.com/tom/ --Apple-Mail-10--320181409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">hey Tom, aren't you talking in your podcast about = polygons and things?</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0isn't Noble Ape an ideal = candidate for merging with these</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">environments?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Short answer - = yes.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I've = been talking about a DLL version of Noble Ape for about... two years = now... for some interface to Digital Space. In a similar timeframe = talking with Jon about Breve.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I'm not sure if you have = heard the end of Jon's Biota Chat, but I talk there about the three = directions of Noble Ape. One involves potentially including Noble Apes = in graphical forms into something like Digital Space. To be candid, I = think INTEL wanted something super low-profile for their demonstrations. = But that doesn't mean aside from a low-profile scene graph interface I = couldn't also include a high-fiber scene graph like DS.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The other two projects = would, on one end, require a current Noble Ape like graphic interface = for Apple generic handheld and also, at the same time, potentially super = 3dized version or current Noble Ape graphics for the=A0hyper-threaded = over-network version. This is TBD.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>So the good news is the = hyper-threaded over-network version is nearly ready for release. This = still brings into question whether that version will be on the = DLL/library or whether it will be the old version etc.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>In short, by discarding = your internals, you are in a slightly better place for a port to = DS/Breve than I am currently with Noble Ape. But like all hobbyist open = source development with time, everything should be sorted out with Noble = Ape and all versions should be compatible and able to be completely = skin-less for DS/Breve integration.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Best regards,</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Tom Barbalet.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Sep 23, = 2007, at 2:32 PM, Gerald de Jong wrote:</DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">hey Tom, aren't you talking in your podcast about = polygons and things?</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN>isn't Noble Ape an ideal = candidate for merging with these</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">environments?</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">On 9/23/07, Gerald de Jong <<A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>> = wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">Tom,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">good that you mention this right now.<SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>i was just thinking about = what</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">step to take next and i had = decided on getting something graphical to</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">appear.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">on the one hand, D@H is more non-visual than visual, = because all of</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the evolution happens in the = storm of numbers inside the chips while</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">nobody's = watching, so any way to make visualization of the results</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">easier or snazzier would be good.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">i could = start sniffing around to see how these things might be done</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">with the different frameworks you mention, but if = any of you have some</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">helpful hints, inside info, = particularly good URLs, motivational</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">arguments, = i'm all ears.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>if none of = them make enough sense i can</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">easily fall = back on my trusty JOGL interfacing.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-G</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On 9/23/07, = Tom Barbalet <<A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>> wrote:</DIV> = <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Howdy Gerald,</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">If you = are starting from scratch from the low-level end, it might be = an</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">ideal time to experiment with the environment = and graphics engines that are</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">always = looking for projects such as DaH.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Have you considered using Breve = or Digital Space for the graphics and</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">environment? I think Framsticks might also enable you to create the = body</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">properties and the physics and = leave the rest to their environment engine.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top:= 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I know Bruce = is dying for an artificial life simulator in Digital Space. It</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">might be a good investigation/implementation = project. It might also</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">instigate a native Mac = version of Digital Space. Breve is already</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">multi-platform.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Best regards,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Tom Barbalet.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Sep 23, = 2007, at 1:32 PM, Gerald de Jong wrote:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hi = Sven!</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">it's great to get some feedback about what i'm doing = because it really</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">motivates me to continue.<SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>i'm really starting to have = fun with this</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">from-scratch project because = it's teaching me about what tensegrity</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">is.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">your first issue is with how the collision with the = floor is handled,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and i think you're probably = right.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>thanks for = bringing it up.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 = </SPAN>i</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">suppose the push must happen in = the direction of the bar that is being</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">lifted = above the floor.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>feel = free to make a suggestion about how it</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">should = be handled.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>i'm sure i = can proceed with lots of other things</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and then = eventually come back and get this thing just right, if we can</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">work out a sufficiently authentic way.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the = slack issue is certainly an interesting one, but i think i'm = on</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the right track by having the notion of an = "ideal cable" be that of</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">something = completely elastic.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>i = could be wrong (and i will definitely</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">find out = if that's the case) but i think that tensegrity can be built</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">on the basis of these always-pull elastic = cables.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">if you think it's really important to explore = systems that can contain</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">slack it will = be possible to make it work either way, in a pluggable</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">fashion.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On 9/23/07, Sven Heinz <<A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>> wrote:</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">I am a little<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0= </SPAN>bit confused regarding your handling of gravity you said, = if</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">one end is below ground both ends are pushed, = but would that not cancel out</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">rotational = movement preventing the bars from tipping over?</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And = about slack, as the appearance of slack is one of the major signs that = a</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">construct fails tensigrity I think constructs = with cables that approach</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">zero length = should be elimated from the evolution process.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">--</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX = MultiMessenger geh=F6rt?</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Der kanns mit = allen:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger">http://www.gmx.net/de/go/= multimessenger</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; = "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">------------------------------------------------------------------------= -</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This SF.net email is sponsored by: = Microsoft</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Defy all challenges. = Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/">http://cl= k.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Fluidiom-code mailing list</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= urceforge.net</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code">https:= //lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">--</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Gerald de Jong</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A></DIV><DI= V style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.groovyactors.org">http://www.groovyactors.org</A></DIV>= <DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.darwinathome.org">http://www.darwinathome.org</A></DIV>= <DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">------------------------------------------------------------------------= -</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This SF.net email is sponsored by: = Microsoft</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Defy all challenges. = Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/">http://cl= k.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Fluidiom-code mailing list</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= urceforge.net</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code">https:= //lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN>--- --- --- --- --- --- --- = --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">---</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Noble Ape <A = href=3D"http://nobleape.com/sim/">http://nobleape.com/sim/</A><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =A0 </SPAN>Ape Reality</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://nobleape.com/reality/">http://nobleape.com/reality/</A></DI= V><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Community <A = href=3D"http://biota.org/podcast/">http://biota.org/podcast/</A> <SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>Tom Barbalet <A = href=3D"http://nobleape.com/tom/">http://nobleape.com/tom/</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">------------------------------------------------------------------------= -</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This SF.net email is sponsored by: = Microsoft</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Defy all challenges. = Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/">http://cl= k.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Fluidiom-code mailing list</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= urceforge.net</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code">https:= //lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Gerald = de Jong</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A></DIV><DI= V style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.groovyactors.org">http://www.groovyactors.org</A></DIV>= <DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.darwinathome.org">http://www.darwinathome.org</A></DIV>= <DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--<SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Gerald = de Jong</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A></DIV><DI= V style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.groovyactors.org">http://www.groovyactors.org</A></DIV>= <DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.darwinathome.org">http://www.darwinathome.org</A></DIV>= <DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">------------------------------------------------------------------------= -</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This SF.net email is sponsored by: = Microsoft</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Defy all challenges. = Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/">http://cl= k.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Fluidiom-code mailing list</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= urceforge.net</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code">https:= //lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fluidiom-code</A></DIV> = </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: = normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier New"><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Courier New"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">---</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Courier New"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">Noble = Ape</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"><FONT= class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier New"><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Courier New; = ">=A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Courier New"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><A = href=3D"http://nobleape.com/sim/">http://nobleape.com/sim/</A> =A0 = =A0</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">Ape Reality=A0 <A = href=3D"http://nobleape.com/reality/">http://nobleape.com/reality/</A></SP= AN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Courier New"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Courier New; ">Community <A = href=3D"http://biota.org/podcast/">http://biota.org/podcast/</A>=A0 = =A0</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: = Courier New; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: = Courier New; ">Tom Barbalet <A = href=3D"http://nobleape.com/tom/">http://nobleape.com/tom/</A>=A0</SPAN></= SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></S= PAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>= --Apple-Mail-10--320181409-- --===============0012883637== Content-Type: text/plain; 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