Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

>> A better solution is to revert to a default value only if there is no
stroke or fill specified...<<

Upon longer consideration, I agree tools should not allow invisible
drawing.

Thinkin out loud:
If using the last style is preferred, but the last style was no F/S,  maybe
the fallback value should be the "Tool's own style" when a new tool is
selected (but keeping "last style" in cases where fill or stroke was
assigned to other than none). In the case where the tool has no "own style"
set, a 1uu stroke could be assigned.

Having consistent style availability might reduce confusion... It's a
puzzle to me why users can assign fill/stroke to a selected tool before
drawing using swatches in the palette, but not with the Fill/Stroke
dialog... nor can a user assign the stroke width at the palette before
drawing.

FWIW, all the programs listed below allow the creation of invisible objects:
Adobe Illustrator
Corel Draw
Affinity Designer
Inkscape
Scribus
LibreOffice Draw
SK1

I'm not saying this is good, but that I haven't found any vector
illustration programs that don't.




TD



On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 5:55 AM C R <[email protected]> wrote:

> It is not necessary to make invisible shapes to use text on path. In fact
> it's not a good idea to do that because then the user can not easily select
> the shape for rotation. Though I think there is quite a bit wrong with the
> text on path implementation in the first place.
>
> The solution should not require new users to learn/deal with a bad
> workflow just to prevent a single problem.
>
> A better solution is to revert to a default value only if there is no
> stroke or fill specified. This is because it is always an error to draw
> invisible shapes. It's arguable whether it's a good idea to hide shapes by
> giving them no fill and no stroke, after they are drawn, but it is *always*
> an error to draw a new shape with no fill and stroke.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, 01:07 brynn, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Invisible shapes are occassionally needed.  For example, text on path.
>> Another
>> example, custom stripe pattern.
>>
>> However, the problem is new users.  They find that they can make
>> invisible
>> objects, so they do.  Then they forget that they did.  Then they can't
>> draw
>> anything anymore.
>>
>> I still like Patrick's suggestion in the bug report
>> (https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777)  It helps in only a
>> certain
>> situation, and does not impair accidentally in other situations.
>>
>> All best,
>> brynn
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: C R
>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 5:03 PM
>> To: Inkscape User Community
>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating
>>
>>
>> Or don't use invisible objects. I think thats still the better solution.
>> They
>> are not needed for anything, and having to sort through potentially
>> thousands of
>> objects to find the invisible ones, is so so very not worth it. :)
>>
>> PS- easier way to see invisible objects is View > Display Mode > Outline
>> imho, this is also so very not worth it.
>>
>> Don't use invisible shapes, people. It's bad, mkay? ;)
>> -C
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Victor Westmann <
>> [email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> To see whatever object you have on Inkscape canvas, doesn't matter if
>> invisible
>> or not, just go to "Object" > "Objects...".
>> All of the objects will be there.
>>
>> I was the one that requested this feature way and was REALLY glad this
>> was
>> implemented! Extremely handy feature.
>>
>> Just like the Blender panel with all of the objects present in the
>> Blender
>> viewports.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --Victor Westmann
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Maren Hachmann <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> Am 30.08.2018 um 23:01 schrieb C R:
>>
>> >     It can't ever catch all the cases, though. Layers? Groups? Too much
>> >     blur? A clip or mask? Other objects above in a different layer?
>> There
>> >     are so many of those that cause drawing invisible objects, and
>> Inkscape
>> >     doesn't help with determining the cause (btw. opacity at 0 is the
>> most
>> >     frequent cause, esp. as there is a bug about the opacity indicator
>> field
>> >     in the current stable version, after that comes 'fill alpha at 0'.
>> 'no
>> >     stroke, no fill' is a lot rarer, in my experience).
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm sure we can catch some or most of these. I still maintain it's an
>> > error to draw a shape with no fill and no stroke, regardless of the
>> > reason ... with the possible exception of masking or clipping. I don't
>> > see how groups would be a problem unless the group were set to 0%
>> > opacity...
>>
>> - Happens, unfortunately. And people don't notice they are in one when
>> they try to draw something.
>>
>> > another thing whic is inadvisable for all the same reasons.
>> > :) Regardless, if the user hits escape twice, it exits out of any groups
>> > etc. We should make sure that at least in this condition, where nothing
>> > else is interfering, the user is able to draw visible shapes effectively
>> > without having to tweak anything to see what they are drawing. :)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >     - It might be inadvisable, but it's quick and a way that is
>> currently
>> >     available to change the line width of a line drawing (like a simple
>> >     cartoon). I wasn't talking about gradients, and also not about shape
>> >     properties.
>> >
>> >
>> > A better method is to enter the group, select all, and adjust the
>> > line-width there. Being able to set the stroke, but not stroke gradient,
>> > or fill but not fill gradient on a group is inconsistent behaviour and
>> > needs to be fixed one way or the other - either the group is treated
>> > like selecting all its contents, or the group needs to be treated like a
>> > separate shape. Right now its both, and is confusing and inconsistent
>> UX.
>>
>> - I can set the fill and stroke gradient for a group just fine (in both
>> master and 0.92.x), what are the cases in which this doesn't work?
>>
>> Your suggested change can make some actions take a lot longer, because
>> one needs to select only objects that have a stroke in a group, to
>> change their stroke width.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >     I just don't expect Inkscape to add a stroke when I change the line
>> >     width - I understand that it might help new users, but it's also
>> >     illogical.
>> >
>> >
>> > Currently, if the user adjusts the line width and there's no stroke, the
>> > value is thrown away entirely. That's absolutely apalling UX. :)
>>
>> - It doesn't do that for me in 0.92.x, which I routinely use. But the
>> behavior is new in master - and I just noticed someone removed the
>> stroke width indicator in the lower left corner! Why was that removed? I
>> use it so often for quick adjustments.
>>
>> I think these are bugs. This can't be intentional...
>>
>> Maren
>>
>>
>>
>>
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