RE: java is a bloated mess

> I'd like to know to what extent people agree
> with the following assertions:
> 
> - Java is a bloated mess

Define "bloated"...

For the purposes of my responses I'll define bloated as "Too many
tasks/includes/tools are *required* for me to get my job done, whatever that
job may be."

So we start with Java the language itself. Is the language itself "bloated"?
I don't think you will hear many people argue that the language is or ever
was bloated and a lot of people will argue that it has been too lean (why
did getting real enumerations take so long?).

If we agree that the Java language itself is reasonable then we have to move
into the frameworks and class libraries and the best place to start is the
default class libraries that come built into the JVM. Sitting here looking
at my bookshelf I see my "Java In A Nutshell" (JDK 1.3) book runs at abou
650 pages of which about 350 are API reference. That's actually not bad.

I do almost no work with user interfaces, all of my work is either
command-line or servlet based. I do very little that I would consider to be
esoteric or even particularly interesting in the way of architecture or
design. And I seldom find that the default class libraries get in my way or
provide me any significant form of annoyance. If something is really and
truly annoying me (if I don't really like the Java regexp engine for
example) I sit and weigh cost of grabbing a replacment and distributing
that. Most times I figure that the default JVM behavior is less annoying
than the cost of deploying a replacement.

Is JVM startup time an issue? I have never found it to be but I'm not
writing apps where the performance impact of startup is significant. When
I'm spending forty-five minutes generating invoices and my quad Xeon
database is hitting 45% CPU utilization on two processors while doing so,
the JVM is *not* my biggest problem.

Do you want to talk about the bloat of other frameworks such as J2EE? Go
ahead. The good news is that they are optional. If you find them bloated,
get something else. We aren't required to use what Sun provides for things
like that.

> - Java is a bloated mess because it has
>   divorced itself from the operating system

My primary development platforms are Java and Win32. My Windows experience
started with Windows 3.0 and the straight C API including WinMain and all
that other crap. I've moved through to MFC version Yada-Yada-Yada and looked
at the .NET world but never done anything with it. From watching both
Windows and Java mature they share remarkable similarities.

The simple fact is that platforms grow as they mature. At some point the
frameworks may become unwieldy due to everyone getting in their pet
features. That's just life. The good news is that as one framework becomes
"bloated" something is always coming in behind it to do it better, faster
and smaller.

I don't see how this is a significant issue...

rjsjr


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/saFolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 

Before posting a question, try to find your answer here: 
<http://www.egroups.com/links/advanced-servlets>
Announcements should go to: [email protected]
To Post a message, send it to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: [email protected] 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advanced-servlets/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    [email protected]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/