Re: Fw: Question about GPL (semi off topic)
[email protected] Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:01:17 -0700
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Hi,
Regarding the difference between Using MySQL and Linux.
For Linux, "User Space" applications that use standard API's does not come
under the GPL.
According to Linus Torvalds (http://kerneltrap.org/node/1735) , all
modules do come under the GPL because it uses detailed Linux internal
calls and comes under the "linking with libraries"
So you can use Linux and and run commercial applications without GPL
issues.
Binary only modules are kind of in the Gray area of the license but Linus
believes that binary only modules are a violation of the GPL.
MySQL is a little bit different. MySQL consists of two components (The
client driver software, and the Server software)
It is clear, there are no issues with the MySQL server part. You can run
the server any way you want (Running is specifically excluded from the GPL
license)
as long as you are not modifying it, or imbedding the server into your
application.
The issue you have is with the MySQL client driver. If you link
(dynamically or statically) with the driver, then your application comes
under the GPL.
So the clarification you need to get from the GPL folks as recommended by
MySQL is
"Is providing a ASP type service using software linked with GPL libraries
considered an activity of distributing".
** It is clear that copying and modifying and not distributing satisfies
the GPL (no violation)
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running
the Program is not restricted"
A potential /bad/Not in good faith/Against the spirit of the license
solution would be to write a middleware application/WebService that uses
the MySQL driver and open source that.
Your application can communicate with the WebService bypassing the GPL
issue with MySQL Client.
Thanks,
Edward
Christian Cryder <[email protected]>
06/02/2005 07:44 AM
Please respond to christian.cryder
To: [email protected]
cc:
Subject: Re: Fw: [barracuda] Question about GPL (semi off
topic)
Just thought I'd pass along the rest of my discussion w/ the MySQL folks,
so you can see how it ended. Interesting, to say the least. Thanks for all
the input and insight in the previous responses...
Christian
Matt Fredrickson wrote:
Christian,
We are not the experts of the GPL licenese and there are many scenarios
and business cases that can fall under the GPL. I suggest that you talk
to the GPL folks to see if what you are doing falls under the GPL (they
are the experts on the GPL license). If they agree that your usage falls
under the GPL, you are absolutely fine using MySQL.
Kind regards,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Cryder [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]
Sure. We have customers who are in a contractual arrangement with us
(details of those contracts aren't pertinent to this discussion). They do
not pay any fee to use our software; our software is free for all our
customers. They access it via a web interface. The software runs entirely
on our own internal servers. We do not resell or redistribute our software
code. Any GPL libraries we use are "as is" - we don't modify them.
That's basically it.
Christian
Matt Fredrickson wrote:
Can you tell me more about your ASP model? Do you charge your customers a
monthly or yearly fee? I may need to run your scenario past our legal
department for a better explaination from MySQL.
Regards,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Cryder [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]
Matt Fredrickson wrote:
My apologies, you could use MySQL under the GPL license as long as your
application is open source.
No, our application is not open source (which I was clear to state). We
follow an ASP model, the code we write simply runs on our servers, and it
may _use_ some GPL software (ie. Linux, other 3rd party GPL libraries,
etc), but it does not modify or distribute them. It simply runs them.
Now, from the GPL verbiage at http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html, I see
this: "Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are
not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of
running the Program is not restricted"
So just to be clear, all we are talking about is _running_ a GPL program
on our own servers. We have a webapplication that uses various libraries
(some GPL) as it handles user requests and generates web pages for them to
view. But we never _copy, distribute, or modify_ any of the GPL code.
So the question remains - why can I not use the GPL version of your
software? I'm asking for a specific explanation based on the GPL license:
why would my being an ASP have _anything_ to do with whether or not I can
use the GPL version of your software?
I really need to get a clear, solid answer here (otherwise there is no way
I'll ever be able to convince anyone here to even consider MySQL).
Thanks much,
Christian
Regards,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Cryder [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]
Hi Matt,
Sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but I'm not sure I'm following your
answers. If the GPL has nothing to do with my being an ASP, then why would
my being an ASP prevent me from using MySQL under its GPL license?
Thanks for clarifying,
Christian
On 6/1/05, Matt Fredrickson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have a followup question (because I know I'm going to get asked this by
my peers here). Could you explain to me how the GPL has anything to do
with us being an ASP?
It does not.
In other words, what part of the GPL distinguishes between whether a
webapp on our servers is being accessed internally (from local network)
vs. externally (via our clients)? Wouldn't we run into the exact same
issue simply by using Linux servers (after all, Linux is GPL too)?
From my understanding, with the GPL, it does not matter if it is being
accessed internally or externally (e.g. intranet versus public website).
Regards,
Matt
--
Christian
Christian Cryder
Internet Architect, ATMReports.com
"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"
http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regarding the difference between Using
MySQL and Linux.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For Linux, "User Space" applications
that use standard API's does not come under the GPL. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">According to Linus Torvalds (http://kerneltrap.org/node/1735)
, all modules do come under the GPL because it uses detailed Linux internal
calls and comes under the "linking with libraries"</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">So you can use Linux and and run commercial
applications without GPL issues.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Binary only modules are kind of in the
Gray area of the license but Linus believes that binary only modules are
a violation of the GPL.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">MySQL is a little bit different.
MySQL consists of two components (The client driver software, and the Server
software)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">It is clear, there are no issues with
the MySQL server part. You can run the server any way you want (Running
is specifically excluded from the GPL license)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">as long as you are not modifying it,
or imbedding the server into your application.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The issue you have is with the MySQL
client driver. If you link (dynamically or statically) with the driver,
then your application comes under the GPL.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">So the clarification you need to get
from the GPL folks as recommended by MySQL is </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">"Is providing a ASP type service
using software linked with GPL libraries considered </font><font size=3>an
activity of distributing".</font>
<br><font size=3>** It is clear that copying and modifying and not distributing
satisfies the GPL (no violation)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3> Activities other than copying, distribution
and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its
scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted"</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>A potential /bad/Not in good faith/Against the spirit
of the license solution would be to write a middleware application/WebService
that uses the MySQL driver and open source that.</font>
<br><font size=3>Your application can communicate with the WebService bypassing
the GPL issue with MySQL Client.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=3>Edward</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Christian Cryder <[email protected]></b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">06/02/2005 07:44 AM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to christian.cryder</font>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To:
[email protected]</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc:
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject:
Re: Fw: [barracuda] Question about GPL
(semi off topic)</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Just thought I'd pass along the rest of my discussion
w/ the MySQL folks, so you can see how it ended. Interesting, to say the
least. Thanks for all the input and insight in the previous responses...<br>
<br>
Christian<br>
<br>
<br>
Matt Fredrickson wrote: </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Christian,</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">We are not the experts of
the GPL licenese and there are many scenarios and business cases that can
fall under the GPL. I suggest that you talk to the GPL folks to see
if what you are doing falls under the GPL (they are the experts on the
GPL license). If they agree that your usage falls under the GPL,
you are absolutely fine using MySQL.</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Kind regards,</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Matt</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Christian Cryder [</font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>mailto:[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:42 PM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>Sure. We have customers who are in a contractual arrangement
with us (details of those contracts aren't pertinent to this discussion).
They do not pay any fee to use our software; our software is free for all
our customers. They access it via a web interface. The software runs entirely
on our own internal servers. We do not resell or redistribute our software
code. Any GPL libraries we use are "as is" - we don't modify
them.<br>
<br>
That's basically it.<br>
<br>
Christian<br>
<br>
<br>
Matt Fredrickson wrote: </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Can you tell me more about
your ASP model? Do you charge your customers a monthly or yearly
fee? I may need to run your scenario past our legal department for
a better explaination from MySQL.</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Regards,</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Matt</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Christian Cryder [</font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>mailto:[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:52 AM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>Matt Fredrickson wrote: </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">My apologies, you could
use MySQL under the GPL license as long as your application is open source.</font>
<br><font size=3>No, our application is not open source (which I was clear
to state). We follow an ASP model, the code we write simply runs on our
servers, and it may _use_ some GPL software (ie. Linux, other 3rd party
GPL libraries, etc), but it does not modify or distribute them. It simply
runs them. <br>
<br>
Now, from the GPL verbiage at </font><a href=http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html</u></font></a><font size=3>,
I see this: "Activities other than copying, distribution and modification
are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The
act of running the Program is not restricted"<br>
<br>
So just to be clear, all we are talking about is _running_ a GPL program
on our own servers. We have a webapplication that uses various libraries
(some GPL) as it handles user requests and generates web pages for them
to view. But we never _copy, distribute, or modify_ any of the GPL code.<br>
<br>
So the question remains - why can I not use the GPL version of your software?
I'm asking for a specific explanation based on the GPL license: why would
my being an ASP have _anything_ to do with whether or not I can use the
GPL version of your software?<br>
<br>
I really need to get a clear, solid answer here (otherwise there is no
way I'll ever be able to convince anyone here to even consider MySQL).<br>
<br>
Thanks much,<br>
Christian<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Regards,</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Matt</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Christian Cryder [</font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>mailto:[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:25 AM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>Hi Matt,<br>
<br>
Sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but I'm not sure I'm following your answers.
If the GPL has nothing to do with my being an ASP, then why would my being
an ASP prevent me from using MySQL under its GPL license?<br>
<br>
Thanks for clarifying,<br>
Christian<br>
<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>On 6/1/05, <b>Matt Fredrickson</b> <</font><a href=mailto:[email protected]><font size=3 color=blue><u>[email protected]</u></font></a><font size=3>>
wrote: </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">I have a followup question (because
I know I'm going to get asked this by my peers here). Could you explain
to me how the GPL has anything to do with us being an ASP? </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">It does not.</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">In other words, what part of the
GPL distinguishes between whether a webapp on our servers is being accessed
internally (from local network) vs. externally (via our clients)? Wouldn't
we run into the exact same issue simply by using Linux servers (after all,
Linux is GPL too)?</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">From my understanding, with
the GPL, it does not matter if it is being accessed internally or externally
(e.g. intranet versus public website).</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Regards,</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New">Matt</font>
<br><font size=3><br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>-- </font>
<p><font size=3>Christian</font>
<p>
<table width=100%>
<tr>
<td width=100%>
<hr>
<tr>
<td><font size=3 face="Arial">Christian Cryder<br>
Internet Architect, </font><a href=http://atmreports.com/><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u>ATMReports.com</u></font></a>
<tr>
<td>
<hr>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=center><font size=3><i>"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just
not today"</i></font><font size=3 color=blue><i><u><br>
</u></i></font><a href=http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/><font size=2 color=blue><i><u>http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com</u></i></font></a></div></table>
<br>
<br>
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