Re: Cheney's Halliburton to Control Iraqi Oil?

On Friday 09 May 2003 00:35, Andreas Pour wrote:
> "Timothy R. Butler" wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > > Some have the good taste to read the Torah instead of the Babylonian
> > > Talmud, and see Israel as the Rothschild creation that it is (more on
> > > that
> >
> >   I'm curious what you are suggesting here? I'm not aware of any relation
> > between supporting Israel and reading the Talmud.
> >
> >   That's rather interesting if some Jews are, as you are suggesting, not
> > reading the Talmud. Presumably, that would reawaken "Saudaceeic" (coining
> > a new phrase) Judaism to the extent possible without a temple. I wasn't
> > aware of any noticable movement against Pharasiac (Rabbinic) Judaism
> > since the first century A.D.
>
> There seem to be at least three groups one can point to on this, but I am
> not a full expert by any means:  the Beta Israel, the Neturei Karta and the
> Karaites.
>
> BETA ISRAEL:
>
> AFAIK the Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) never accepted the Talmud, perhaps
> simply b/c they were isolated and lacked access to it.  Apparently this has
> adversely affected their integration into Israeli society.
>
>
> NETUREI KARTA:
>
> AFAICT the Hassidic Jews who would like to dismantle Israel as an affront
> to G-d at least do not take seriously the Talmud's teaching that it is
> supreme over the Torah.
>
> Some of what they have to say (see generally
> http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm):
>
>   The name [Neturei Karta] was given to a group of
>   Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still
>   refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of
>   the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still
>   make) a point of publicly demonstrating their
>   position, the position of the Torah and authentic
>   unadulterated Judaism.
>
>   [ ... ]
>
>   Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small
>   sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews.
>   The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they
>   taken anything away from the written and oral law of
>   the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the
>   Shulchan Aruch. The Neturei Karta are fighting the
>   changes and inroads made by political Zionism during
>   the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis
>   of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the
>   late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to
>   recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish"
>   state during the present period of exile.
>
>   There are those who wish to play down the Neturei
>   Karta and its' Torah-true beliefs. This has been
>   attempted many a time by stating that the Neturei Karta
>   is a minority group and that compared to other Jewish
>   groups the Neturei Karta aren't even noticeable in
>   terms of number.
>
>    [ ... ]
>
>   . . . [T]he number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the
>   anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for,
>   number in the hundreds of thousands.
>
>   Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel"
>   not because it operates secularly, but because the entire
>   concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to
>   Jewish Law.
>
>   All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law
>   opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely
>   due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the
>   then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to
>   Torah heritage and rejection of its values and
>   practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept
>   of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number
>   of Judaism's fundamentals.
>
> I take it here unadulterated means, without the effects of political
> Zionism, but it also seems their emphasis on the Tora and its purity and
> the comment that "[a]ccording to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word"
> indicates a rejection of the supremacy of the Talmud, but any clarification
> here would be appreciated.
>
>   Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected
>   to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State
>   of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental
>   doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to
>   Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos
>   (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force
>   to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state
>   before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach
>   (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it
>   states that we are forbidden to rebel against the
>   nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and
>   we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent
>   us into, ahead of time.
>
>   Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean
>   another people and are not allowed to have anything to
>   do with the Zionist enterprise, their political
>   meddling and their wars.
>
>   [ ... ]
>
>   The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are
>   not contaminated with Zionism.
>
>   The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of
>   their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land
>   should be returned to them.
>
>   Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of
>   ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the
>   shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake
>   of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a
>   peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to
>   a non-Zionist entity.
>
>   According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word.
>   There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who
>   happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law
>   in any way. In fact even the greatest rabbi or as
>   Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet"
>   [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no
>   right to distort or amend even one letter of the
>   Torah.
>
>   [ ... ]
>
>   The world must know that Zionists have illegitimately
>   seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in
>   the name of the Jewish people!
>
> If you read on on that page, you will find some interesting claims BTW,
> including the claim that the Jews who lived in Palestine before the
> Zionists arrived have been forced out of Israel:
>
>   Some of the reasons that these individuals abandoned
>   the country in which they and their families had lived
>   for many generations (having lived there many years
>   prior to the establishment of the illegitimate so-called
>   "State of Israel") include; ideological refusal to live
>   under the illegitimate heretical "Israeli" regime, them
>   being exiled by the Zionist government for their
>   insistence of remaining independent of the illegitimate
>   heretical regime or them being unable to live a normal
>   family life due to them and their families being
>   persistently harassed, repeatedly incarcerated and many
>   times even physically tortured by the Zionist police and
>   agents. This dispersion resulted in the emergence of
>   various Neturei Karta establishments on the broader
>   international scene.
>
> When I read this stuff I start to gain sympathy for the view that Jack
> Bernstein ("The Life Of An American Jew In Racist-Marxist Israel") is not a
> total fabrication :-/.
>
>
> KARAITES:
>
> Beyond them, there apparently is a group of some tens of thousands of
> Karaites who explicity reject the Talmud.  See
> http://www.jewishsf.com/bk991210/1ackariate.shtml .
>
There's no denial on their part, though, that Israel as a land, and 
particularly Jerusalem, belongs theoretically to the Jews. The only 
difference with the Zionists is who is supposed to be in charge of ending the 
exile, if you will - God or the people themselves. Or more precisely, to what 
extent the people are supposed to be involved in bringing about the 
"redemption". But I'm no expert on this and don't whish to be - there are 
other reasons then purely religious for the existence of this state (in it's 
modern incarnation).  


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