Re: How Views Cause the Situation to Change (was Re: Cheney's...)

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On Sunday 11 May 2003 06:46, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
> > you likely never will hear about the "Canadian Dream" because that's not
> > the sort of thing that Canadian culture encourages. our culture has
> > different values and different ways of expressing them. this doesn't mean
> > that the USA is somehow superior because of that difference in culture,
> > and i resent that you would imply that.
>
>   I'm not suggesting Canada is bad, I'm just suggesting the USA has always
> been, and continues to be, known as the place to go for a new start. Lots

my point was not what you meant to say or what i thought you said, but rather 
that how you decided to express yourself was to put down other 
cultures/communities of people. "America is good because it has 'the dream' 
and Canada doesn't". while i'm sure you don't really think that the USA has 
become God's Chosen Country, the way American culture expresses itself it 
comes off as if many Americans do. this is very damaging to the world's 
opinion of the USA.

most ironic was that you were trying to argue that the USA isn't as bad as 
people seem to treat it as being, and then went on to demonstrate one of the 
infuriating aspects of American culture.

i appreciate your apology in another mail you sent, but i'm not upset or 
offended, i'm *concerned* that the American culture is increasingly unhealthy 
for the world, especially since there is so much power and wealth within its 
borders. note that power and wealth can mean success, and that success is not 
a bad thing. this is not an either/or situation: the USA can be successful 
and good at some things, and be scary and bad in other things. every nation 
can be, and usually is. we can discuss measures of accountability again, but 
i'd rather see what it would take to have you take your head out of the sand.

> of people are obviously happy and well off elsewhere (and I think Canada is
> great and would love to go up there someday)... 

many people do come here. i interact with Asian, African, South American and 
European immigrants all the time here in Canada. at one place i'm consulting 
to, there is a Hungarian and a Russian immigrant on the team, at another 
place the graphic designer is a British import. etc, etc... so yes, there is 
a corresponding "Canadian dream" that these people come to chase; it isn't 
the exact same ideal as the "American dream" (people tend to come here for 
peace and relative prosperity) but it does exist. you don't hear about the 
"Canadian dream" in those words because culturally that would be 
uncomfortable for us. we'd rather hoot and holler when our hockey team wins 
gold in the World's than beat our chest about a "Canadian dream". this does 
not make us better than the Americans simply because we don't express our 
national identity via grand vision statements, it makes us different. there 
are no value statements to be found within these differences in position, and 
yet you try to make one.

this American point of view that you can judge using cultural idioms is not 
healthy.

> but if someone wanted to go
> somewhere to start a new life and go somewhere, the USA has always been
> that place.

thanks for continuing to make me feel worthy as your Northern neighbour, 
especially when you are wrong. *sigh* Dre has already covered this, however, 
so i won't bother.

>   Not superior. There are many countries that are quite good, but I think
> the initial dream continues to be American.

and again... well, you keep your dreams, Tim. i hope they make everyone down 
there feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves. but they feel like sandpaper 
to the soul from my perspective, and i'm aware that this is a cultural 
difference. you know how when you travel you need to be careful about your 
hand gestures, because different things are rude in different places? this is 
one of those things. i point out how your opinion is culturally rude, and you 
insist on restating them; i just hope you don't wonder at the reaction such 
statements incur.

> My point had nothing to do with
> overall superiority. My point had to do with the fact that there wouldn't
> be an American dream if America was so bad. Lacking a "dream" doesn't mean
> the country is bad, but having one, I think, implies the country is good.

you're completely missing the point, Tim. Canada does have a dream, but we 
don't package it like that. in YOUR culture, a "dream statement" implies the 
country is good, but that's because it's YOUR culture. it's a circular 
reference: "my culture is good because it is my culture". in MY culture 
having a similarly pompous dream is not really acceptable. so, from MY 
cultural perspective, pumping the "American dream" does not make the USA a 
better place at all. 

something else besides imagination, rhetoric and chest thumping is necessary 
to weigh the good things and the bad things in a nation (and every nation has 
both). we can't judge culturally, since it isn't a useful measuring stick by 
which we can agree on.

> > >   With vigilance against liberalization and socialization of the
> > > government, especially through the constant fight against big
> > > government,
> >
> > big government is liberal? ergo if we don't want a big brother government
> > we should err on the side of conservatism? is this what you're saying?
>
>   Yes. Not necessarily always "Republican" kind of conservatism. But just
> conservatism in general (with a balance, not going to far to the right, but
> pretty far, IMO).

someone mentioned how left/right is such a straightjacket, and i agree. in 
some things, a conservative approach is good; in others, a liberal approach 
is good; in yet others, there are good arguments for either approach. 
suggesting one sweeping mode of operation requires one to accept the lie that 
we live in a simple world with simple problems that are all fairly similar.

someone brought up the concept of legalization of marijuana, so i think i'll 
take my viewpoints on liberalization over there since canibis is a very 
interesting case in point...

- -- 
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE: The 'K' is for 'kick ass'
http://www.kde.org       http://promo.kde.org/3.1/feature_guide.php
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