Re: My take on the State of the Union

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On January 21, 2004 11:54, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
>    Separation of Church and State never existed (at least in the modern
> understanding of the term).

correct; our forebears took the first steps in the right direction. since t=
hen=20
we've failed to continue the process. if there is a disagreement between ou=
r=20
"modern understanding" and our current implementation, that should be=20
addressed. otherwise we risk being rightly judged as failures of our time.

>     This does not prohibit the president from being religious or talking
> religiously.=20

i agree that it shouldn't prohibit the President from being religious or=20
speaking about religion, but it should most definitely keep all such affair=
s=20
out of his official life and duties as President. to include statements to=
=20
the effect that the Christian God is directing the government's actions in =
an=20
official political speech is a very dangerous precedent. separation between=
=20
the Church and the State was seen as a worthy goal centuries ago for very=20
good reasons.

>    I think the Declaration of Independence, which leans on the
> understanding of a personal Creator, shows there real intent. Not to
> remove all traces of religion from government, but to insure the
> government didn't interfere with the free practice of religion and
> didn't force anyone to pay for a church they didn't agree with.

i'm aware of their intentions (Thomas Jefferson wasn't exactly a holy rolle=
r,=20
btw ;), but what really matters are our own intentions (e.g. the 'modern=20
understanding' that religion has no business in governance).

to say that the intent and legislation of someone almost 230 years ago shou=
ld=20
somehow reflect upon our current circumstances so accurately as to not=20
require inquiry of our own is foolish. just because they stopped short of=20
"removing all traces of religion from government" doesn't mean we should as=
=20
well.

the men and women of the past were not perfect and they did not set out a=20
perfect framework that needed no revision. the Bill of Rights and the=20
mountains of legislation since should be enough to realize that. 2 centurie=
s=20
changes a lot of things and we face a different reality from theirs.

(btw, i'm a spiritual, though not religious, person.)

>    The USA PATRIOT Act is a terrible thing, but it is just one of many
> things that has happened and is happening. Overall, I'd say the Bush
> administration has increased freedom across the world.

i'm not even going to get into this discussion with you (or anyone else) ri=
ght=20
now (no time =3D), but just so that it is very clear what my stand is: i do=
 NOT=20
agree that the current administration has increased the freedom on this=20
planet.

i don't think GWB et al are the antiChrist, but i don't see them as a posit=
ive=20
force either.

> > "We have no desire to dominate, no ambitions of empire. Our aim is a
> > democratic peace a peace founded upon the dignity and rights of every m=
an
> > and woman."
> >
> > to force your definition of governance and peace upon others is to
> > dominate.
>
>   I suspect this was more in response to the suggestion that we
> personally wish to control the world.

i'm fully aware of the context, and i still stand behind what i said =3D)

>   Certainly, our leadership today isn't the best its ever been, however,
> I don't see it as bad either.

yes, unfortunately there has been worse. but i have higher expectations tha=
n=20
"not bad" (and the current admin doesn't even rate that in my books)

hrm... when exactly did we (as a culture) begin being satisfied with=20
leadership that was anything less than great?

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Aaron J. Seigo
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