Re: Here is my Centipede scepticism

Mats Henricson wrote:

> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>> Mats Henricson wrote, On 07/06/2003 1.41:
>>
>>> Now your team members also need to learn Centipede, and
>>> you claim that is an improvement?
>>
>>
>> Centipede is not to learn. It's an Ant task that uses the Gump 
>> descriptor. What do you have to learn?
>
>
> The Gump descriptor, for example. Plus the Centipede task. 

True, but once you get more than 2 interdependent projects you need the 
help.

>
> Of course, but what I mean is that in every environment
> where you introduce Centipede you are adding complexity,
> since Centipede is non-trivial. That means that for it
> to be meaningful to use Centipeded, it must remove some
> complexity somewhere else.
>
> And this is the main idea with it all, right? Centipede
> will reduce the complexity of you ant build scripts,
> since it uses reusable cents.
>
> My claim is that it doesn't work! I can't use your javadoc
> cent, since it doesn't do what I want. I can't use your
> JUnit cent (I assume there is such a thing) since it can't
> possibly know the names of the JUnit classes I want to
> run.


Standard practice is to name you test *Test   the junit examples show 
running test that match that pattern.
That is what our cent does. 

Maybe it fits your needs, maybe not.  Perhaps i can be tweeked to get 
what you want, maybe not.  But believe me I am happy I have not written 
a ant task for junit in 12 months, on the 9 different projects I am 
involved in.  5 for pay and 4 for free.  
Junit.cent does most of what I need.  If I need more I add it to the 
cent and let everyone benifit.

>
>> Cents are like Ant tasks, you use them if you need them.
>
>
> Well, I need them, but I can't use them.
>
>>>>     2. It is trying to automate/simplify something
>>>>         that is always going to have to be customized
>>>>         by hand.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like an argument against other build tools, not Centipede. 
>>>> Centibuild
>>>> is just ant w/ optional imports. You want your hand crafted ant 
>>>> script, then
>>>> paste it in. Centipede compliments ant w/ some metadata parsing into
>>>> properties, w/ optional/re-usable scriptlets, it doesn't stop you 
>>>> from using
>>>> plain ant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is NOT just adding something without the cost, since
>>> it requires your co-workers to learn yet another tool,
>>> when ant in most cases is just fine.
>>
>>
>>
>> In most small projects it's easy to start. But then imagine to have 
>> to manage 20 projects, each with their own buildfile changes, and 
>> have them compile every time, with the defined libraries...
>
>
> Yes, I agree, this is a complex task, and I do not have
> much experience in maintaining such environments.
>
>> Centipede is an Ant task. That can make "antlibs" that contain both 
>> tasks and prepackaged targets.
>>
>> If you don't want use target libraries and don't want to have 
>> autodownload of jars and don't want to have common properties in a 
>> common descriptor, fine. Then you don't need Centipede.
>
>
> Autodownload of jars sounds scary to me, but I'm sure it
> solves real problems in real environments. 

It is scarry at first.  But so is making sure every developer on your 
team is using the "right" version of xalan, with the "right" version of 
X on each of the projects you work on.  Ruper (autodownload of dependent 
jars) really helps.

>
>
> So, does this mean that Centipede is mostly useful in
> really complex environments, but overkill for smaller
> projects? 

Simple project can also benifit.  Expecially if our "template" is close 
to there needs. 
Take a look at the http://www.krysalis.org/templates/krysalis-project/

defined here  
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/krysalis/krysalis-template/krysalis-project/

>
>
> After re-reading my text above it seems clear to me that
> what I have most problems with are the reusable cents.
> I can't see how they can possibly work. Centipede seems
> to be much more than just reusable cents however, of
> which I know nothing.
>
> Mats
>
>
>
>
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