Re: Help with crash?
Carl Hoefs <[email protected]> Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:39:47 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.macosx.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--===============5177187753439794658== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F65281D3-75CC-4BE3-BB6A-2795662248C6" --Apple-Mail=_F65281D3-75CC-4BE3-BB6A-2795662248C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 To find large files there's also: About This Mac -> Storage -> Manage It's built into macOS. -Carl > On Mar 4, 2021, at 5:46 PM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 4, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Macs R We <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFIt sounds like you have two problems at once: your drive is = over-full, and it's also going bad. It's quite possible that your panics = are due to the OS not being able to access or write critical runtime = information on some portion of the drive that it owns. >>=20 >> I can give you some ways to find large files you weren't aware you = had and would be happy to delete, but it's not going to make your drive = work better. When your drive gets this sick, contiuing to use it just = accelerates the damage. Since it looks like you're going to need to buy = a new drive anyway, I'd just buy a bigger one, hack the transfer, and be = done with it. >>=20 >=20 > Thank you for your help. You did guide me to the right places to find = this. >=20 > It=E2=80=99s definitely time for a new drive, sadly.=20 >=20 > If you don=E2=80=99t mind offering ways to find some large files, = I=E2=80=99d appreciate it. I will need to clear space even after the new = drive. >=20 > Thank you! >=20 >>> On Mar 4, 2021, at 3:29 PM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:56 AM Jeff Weinberger = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 3:47 PM Macs R We <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> I can't give you great instructions because I don't have any panic = logs of my own so that I could tell you for sure where to find them. >>>=20 >>> Open Console, click one by one on all the folders and subfolders in = the left-hand column (the system-y ones, at any rate, you can skip stuff = like Microsoft) looking in the center column for any that start with = "panic" and have the right date and time on them. I expect you'll find = them somewhere under either /Library/Logs or /var/log. Keep in mind that = folders that have subfolders also have logs directly inside them, so = don't miss clicking directly on them. >>>=20 >>> If you find an appropriate panic log, right-click on it, choose = Reveal in Finder, then copy it to a cloud-accessible location. >>>=20 >>> Thanks. I've done a good bit of searching and there seems to be no = "panic" log - only crash reports for individual daemons/tasks. The only = information I can find that shows what was happening in the system at = the time of the crash is what I posted in my initial email from = system.log.=20 >>>=20 >>> For most of the crashes, the only entries in the crash reports seem = to be from 'cloudd' - and my iCloud syncing is not working well at all, = so I suspect this is the cause. Some other things show up now and then = (disk issues with an external drive that might be failing and once or = twice, 'ScreenTimeAgent') but not consistenly. Thinking a fresh install = of the OS might help. Or it's just all gone flaky.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:19 PM, Jeff Weinberger = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:49 PM Macs R We <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Most direct thing to do is log into the account that doesn't crash, = go into Console, find the panic log from that crash, and make it = available somewhere where we can look at it. >>>>=20 >>>> Happy to, but pardon my ignorance here. I posted messages from the = system log, but don't know where to find the panic log. If you can help = point me there, I'll post it .If it helps I'm on an iMac (late 2015) = running MacOS11.1. Thank you! >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I do like the technique of booting from a drive with a virgin OS on = it. I keep one of those, most people don't. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't, sadly. I"m hesitant to erase my internal drive because the = data loss (even with time machine) would be tough, but if nothing else = works.... >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Jeff Weinberger = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:17 PM Matt Penna <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> Whenever I encounter such a problem, my first steps are to run = Apple Hardware Test (AHT), and if that shows no problems (it=E2=80=99s = far from foolproof), try a completely clean install of the OS to a blank = drive. See if you can get any clues from either of these steps. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If you need AHT for your Mac, you can find it for many different = Mac models here on GitHub: >>>>>=20 >>>>> https://github.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest = <https://github.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest> >>>>>=20 >>>>> Let us know how it goes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> You mentioned that occasionally your Mac refuses to start up. Can = you describe the crashes you=E2=80=99re seeing? Are you getting the gray = screen with a message that you need to restart your computer, or is it = just a reboot with no warning? >>>>>=20 >>>>> It actually crashes when I try to log in to my user account. It = starts up slowly, but does start, then I log in and I get the grey = screen that says I need to reboot. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I am able to log into an alternate user account, so I don't think = it's hardware...but I'll give that a try. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Matt >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Jeff Weinberger = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thank you for your help with SIMBL I removed all traces I could = find of it and it no longer appears in logs, crash reports, 'find' = commands, etc. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> May I impose on your collective expertise to help diagnose the = ongoing crashes? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> But the system crashes have not stopped. I have identified that = it is the user account (I am the only user of the system, so having my = user account is kind of important). I only have two use accounts: 1) = mine and 2) a test account just in case there's a problem with mine - = which there is. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Every time I restart and then login to my account my Mac crashes. = When I log in to the test account, it is very slow, but successfully = logs in and I can do some testing.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I noticed some issues with one of my two external drives, so I = have disconnected it. The crashes continue.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I see from the log files that "cloudd" (the iCloud daemon) = crashes very frequently. I don't know if this is relevant. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Any help is appreciated! >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Here is the system.log file leading up to the last crash: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I have made progress, but am not sure how to resolve what seems to = be the issue. I see lots of disk access errors leading up to the crashes = in system.log. Some are related to the startup disk being full (it's = very close to full). The crash logs show lots of crashes for 'ccloud' - = the iCloud sync agent. I have my iCloud account set to manage my disk = space (moving older files to the cloud when there is little space left), = so the disk should never get full. Because I do see new files from my = iMac (the one that crashes) on my iPhone/iPad in iCloud, it is syncing = files, but I suspect it's crashing trying to move files to the cloud to = make space on my local device.=20 >>>=20 >>> So I need to make space without losing files. Is there any way to = force iCloud to move specified files to the cloud? I can think of other, = more complex, ways to fix this, and would appreciate suggestions. >>>=20 >>> Thank you for all your help! >>> =20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MacOSX-talk mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk = <https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk> > _______________________________________________ > MacOSX-talk mailing list > [email protected] > https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk --Apple-Mail=_F65281D3-75CC-4BE3-BB6A-2795662248C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">To = find large files there's also:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">About This Mac -> Storage -> Manage</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It's built into = macOS.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">-Carl</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br = class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar = 4, 2021, at 5:46 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta = http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" = class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br = class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Mar 4, 2021, at 7:34 = PM, Macs R We <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><br = class=3D""></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" = content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">It sounds like you = have two problems at once: your drive is over-full, and it's also going = bad. It's quite possible that your panics are due to the OS not being = able to access or write critical runtime information on some portion of = the drive that it owns.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">I can give you some ways to find large files you weren't = aware you had and would be happy to delete, but it's not going to make = your drive work better. When your drive gets this sick, contiuing to use = it just accelerates the damage. Since it looks like you're going to need = to buy a new drive anyway, I'd just buy a bigger one, hack the transfer, = and be done with it.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div>Thank you for your help. You did guide me to the right = places to find this.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s definitely time for a new drive, = sadly. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If = you don=E2=80=99t mind offering ways to find some large files, I=E2=80=99d= appreciate it. I will need to clear space even after the new = drive.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thank = you!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><blockquote= type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div= class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar = 4, 2021, at 3:29 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Thu, Mar 4, = 2021 at 11:56 AM Jeff Weinberger <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 3:47 PM Macs R We <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D"">I = can't give you great instructions because I don't have any panic logs of = my own so that I could tell you for sure where to find them.<div = class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">Open Console, click one by one = on all the folders and subfolders in the left-hand column (the system-y = ones, at any rate, you can skip stuff like Microsoft) looking in the = center column for any that start with "panic" and have the right date = and time on them. I expect you'll find them somewhere under either = /Library/Logs or /var/log. Keep in mind that folders that have = subfolders also have logs directly inside them, so don't miss clicking = directly on them.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">If you find an appropriate panic log, right-click on it, = choose Reveal in Finder, then copy it to a cloud-accessible = location.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks. I've done a good bit of = searching and there seems to be no "panic" log - only crash reports for = individual daemons/tasks. The only information I can find that shows = what was happening in the system at the time of the crash is what I = posted in my initial email from system.log. </div><div class=3D""><br= class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For most of the crashes, the only = entries in the crash reports seem to be from 'cloudd' - and my = iCloud syncing is not working well at all, so I suspect this is the = cause. Some other things show up now and then (disk issues with an = external drive that might be failing and once or twice, = 'ScreenTimeAgent') but not consistenly. Thinking a fresh install of the = OS might help. Or it's just all gone flaky. </div><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" = class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:19 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div= class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:49 PM Macs R = We <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br = class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px = 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" = class=3D"">Most direct thing to do is log into the account that doesn't = crash, go into Console, find the panic log from that crash, and make it = available somewhere where we can look at it.</div></blockquote><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Happy to, but pardon my = ignorance here. I posted messages from the system log, but don't = know where to find the panic log. If you can help point me there, I'll = post it .If it helps I'm on an iMac (late 2015) running MacOS11.1. Thank = you!</div><div class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" = class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I do = like the technique of booting from a drive with a virgin OS on it. = I keep one of those, most people don't.<br = class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don't, sadly. I"m hesitant to erase = my internal drive because the data loss (even with time machine) would = be tough, but if nothing else works....</div><div = class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" = class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote = type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2021, at 11:40 AM, = Jeff Weinberger <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar = 3, 2021 at 1:17 PM Matt Penna <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br = class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px = 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" = class=3D"">Whenever I encounter such a problem, my first steps are to = run Apple Hardware Test (AHT), and if that shows no problems (it=E2=80=99s= far from foolproof), try a completely clean install of the OS to a = blank drive. See if you can get any clues from either of these = steps.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you need = AHT for your Mac, you can find it for many different Mac models here on = GitHub:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a = href=3D"https://github.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://github.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest</a></div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let us know how it = goes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You = mentioned that occasionally your Mac refuses to start up. Can you = describe the crashes you=E2=80=99re seeing? Are you getting the gray = screen with a message that you need to restart your computer, or is it = just a reboot with no warning?</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br= class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It actually crashes when I try to = log in to my user account. It starts up slowly, but does start, then I = log in and I get the grey screen that says I need to reboot.</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am able to log into an = alternate user account, so I don't think it's hardware...but I'll give = that a try.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Thanks!</div><div class=3D""> </div><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" = class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span = style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D""> </span>Matt</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar = 3, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div= class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Thank you for your help with SIMBL I removed all = traces I could find of it and it no longer appears in logs, crash = reports, 'find' commands, etc.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">May I impose on your collective expertise to help diagnose = the ongoing crashes?<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But the system crashes have not = stopped. I have identified that it is the user account (I am the only = user of the system, so having my user account is kind of important). I = only have two use accounts: 1) mine and 2) a test account just in case = there's a problem with mine - which there is.</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Every time I restart and = then login to my account my Mac crashes. When I log in to the test = account, it is very slow, but successfully logs in and I can do some = testing. </div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">I noticed some issues with one of my two external drives, so = I have disconnected it. The crashes continue. </div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I see from the log files = that "cloudd" (the iCloud daemon) crashes very frequently. I don't know = if this is relevant.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Any help is appreciated!</div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here is the system.log file leading up = to the last crash:</div><div = class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></= div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockq= uote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br = class=3D""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I = have made progress, but am not sure how to resolve what seems to be the = issue. I see lots of disk access errors leading up to the crashes in = system.log. Some are related to the startup disk being full (it's very = close to full). The crash logs show lots of crashes for 'ccloud' - the = iCloud sync agent. I have my iCloud account set to manage my disk space = (moving older files to the cloud when there is little space left), so = the disk should never get full. Because I do see new files from my iMac = (the one that crashes) on my iPhone/iPad in iCloud, it is syncing files, = but I suspect it's crashing trying to move files to the cloud to make = space on my local device. </div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So I need to make space without losing = files. Is there any way to force iCloud to move specified files to the = cloud? I can think of other, more complex, ways to fix this, and would = appreciate suggestions.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Thank you for all your help!</div><div = class=3D""> </div></div></div><span = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" = class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important" = class=3D"">MacOSX-talk mailing list</span><br = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a><br = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none" class=3D""><a = href=3D"https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk" = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" = class=3D"">https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk</a></div= ></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br class=3D"">MacOSX-talk = mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a><br = class=3D"">https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk<br = class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_F65281D3-75CC-4BE3-BB6A-2795662248C6-- --===============5177187753439794658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MacOSX-talk mailing list [email protected] https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk --===============5177187753439794658==--