Re: Removing Firefox Version Number

Steve wrote:

> I have been observing this discussion all day.  I will say (and be
> summarily dismissed) that several things pertinent to THIS discussion
> (as opposed to the INTENDED discussion) are very clear:
>
> 1.  The leadership of THIS discussion lacks tact, leaving one with the
> perception that the leadership currently in charge of their treasured
> browser is at BEST uninterested in the community's insight and at
> WORST looking out for his own interests alone.

You're mistaken. I wouldn't have asked for feedback and offered a good 
feedback forum (one with threading and which doesn't unnecessarily spam 
the world -- both problems in the bugzilla discussion) and responded to 
dozens of comments here if I wasn't interested in feedback.  But being 
interested in feedback and turning over Firefox feature development to a 
vote are not the same thing.

> 2.  The move to a Google-esque release cycle and lack of thoughtful
> version management (security patches vs. feature changes) has left
> some feeling uneasy.

Indeed. It will get better with time.

> 3.  The summary dismissal of the enterprise community is relegating a
> once treasured and useful tool of the enterprise developers to the
> same category as Google (making FF second fiddle to Chrome).  It has
> also left some of the most influential members of the community
> uninterested in continuing to champion and support the seemingly
> "legacy" browser that Mozilla is fast becoming.

The enterprise has never been a focus for Mozilla. Mozilla's mission is 
pretty straight forward about this. Mozilla builds Firefox because 
Mozilla believes in empowering individuals and advancing the Web 
platform. Those are two areas where enterprises traditionally do not 
agree with Mozilla. They generally want the pace of change to be very 
slow and they generally believe (rightfully) that individuals should not 
be sovereign over their internet experience because those individuals 
are using the enterprise's computers. That's not the case for all 
enterprises, but it is for many.

But because it's clear that there are some enterprises who want to work 
with Mozilla to try to find a middle ground that doesn't disrupt 
Mozilla's mission of rapidly advancing the Web platform and putting 
users in sole control of their online lives, we created an Enterprise 
Working Group where enterprise discussions are happening.

In the mean time though, Mozilla continues to advance its mission to 
ensure that users are sovereign over their internet experience and that 
the Web platform evolves quickly and openly.

This, I think, is off-topic for the Mozilla usability newsgroup though 
and certainly for this discussion thread which is about the usability of 
features designed to help Mozilla's target users stay up to date.

> 4.  Most of the side issues dismissed by the "moderator" are ENTIRELY
> RELEVANT because it isn't just about functionality - it is about use
> cases, workflow, training, and numerous other more sophisticated
> concepts.

Mozilla is taking very seriously the use cases for it's target audience 
-- individuals on the Web. The entire feature change described here was 
the result of analyzing the most important use case our target audience 
has for the version number in the about dialog. We considered that quite 
a bit and decided that we could make that experience a lot better. But, 
like with all things, there were trade offs. We couldn't just leave 
users without the tools to troubleshoot problems so we considered those 
use cases as well. In the end, we put together a plan to make our 
troubleshooting features kick ass and make our "am I up to date" feature 
kick ass. That's where we are now.

Workflow and training are more appropriate for the enterprise 
discussions though and don't really belong here, at least as long as 
Mozilla hasn't put forward a plan to target those kinds of deployments. 
Those use cases are not a part of the input into the changes here. 
That's not to say that they're not important to some people, but for 
Firefox's primary audience, we've covered the use cases we believe are 
most important and we've developed feature plans that address those use 
cases quite well.


>    - Firefox has a long history of being stable, considerate, and
> influential.  The recent shift to combine security releases with
> feature changes is at BEST lazy, and at worst detrimental to the well-
> being of the entire organization.

You're in the wrong discussion forum and thread. This discussion 
happened about 6 to 8 months ago and it happened in the Mozilla Planning 
newsgroup under a variety of topic threads. If you'd like to go read 
those and offer new data or insights, I encourage you to do so. People, 
myself included, will probably respond with much more topical content 
than they will here in this Usability group.

I do recommend that you not launch that discussion calling Mozilla lazy. 
A lot of people were involved in that decision and a lot more have been 
involved in implementing it. It hasn't been easy and I doubt that most 
would take kindly to your assertion that it was motivated by laziness.

> "hypothetical" became "real".  We are not about to sit idly by and
> allow such failures of vision to continue when we value the platform.

If you'd like to join the discussion, you should take that to the 
appropriate forum.

>    - Enterprise users are no less important than home users or
> "enthusiasts".  Most of us ARE enthusiasts - the kind that report bugs
> that interfere with functionality (really, most users don't know how
> and wouldn't anyway - they just suck it up).  We browse the same
> websites, use MORE tools, abide by MORE standards, and affect MORE
> people.  Anyone who wants to take personal credit for "evangelizing"
> FF needs to consider that it was product management, functional
> integrity, stability and usability EXCLUSIVELY that promoted Firefox
> in most circles.

It sounds to me like you should join the Enterprise Working Group and 
offer your input there. That's where discussions about if and how 
Mozilla can help enterprises are taking place. A Firefox usability 
discussion forum is not where those discussions or decisions are made.

http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2011/07/19/announing-mozilla-enterprise-user-working-group/

>    - A small "idea" (such as the seed of THIS discussion) that
> generates such an enormous outcry, even from the open-minded, sucks up
> such enormous amounts of time, and generates side discussions is
> either a BAD IDEA and should be summarily dropped, or it exposes a
> DEEPER UNDERLYING ISSUE.

For the people who are sticking to the topic at hand and discussing use 
cases and the usability of the features in Firefox that support those 
use cases, this is not a huge waste of time. It's actually important and 
useful discussion.

For the people who want to re-hash decisions long made or to try to 
change Mozilla's mission, those are also not a time suck but there are 
more appropriate forums with more informed audiences where those 
discussions would likely bear sweeter fruits.


> At least it has brought to light an underlying malaise in the Mozilla
> vision and supporting organization.  Firefox has moved from a "useful
> competitive alternative to IE" to "wanna beat Google Chrome novelty".

If you think that's actually Mozilla's motivation "wanna beat Google 
Chrome" then you don't know very much about Mozilla.

> It has given Microsoft undeserved credibility (because of previous
> public statements by Asa and the late, and lame, appeasement of
> Mozilla toward the enterprise community.  It has put those who do not
> want to use IE in business in the unsettling position of deciding
> between Google Chrome (built by a massive multi-billion dollar company
> than intends to continue growing and supporting the platform an
> organization with questionable insight and leadership that appears
> dismissive of community concerns and ignorant of those upon whom they
> have built their reputation.

Yes, the enterprise again. I'll say it again, this isn't the best forum 
for your crusade. If you'd like to try to change the Mozilla Mission, 
you're in the wrong forum for that. This is Mozilla Usability.

> I don't know who the "powers that be" at Mozilla are, but I think it
> is time we all took the energy to find out and let them know who
> really holds the cards.

The powers that be at Mozilla are the people that do the work of moving 
Mozilla forward. That's the way it's been since 1998. If you'd like to 
move Mozilla forward in a different direction, you can do that by 
working on the problems you care about and contributing that work to 
Mozilla. You can go steps further and recruit others to help in the 
efforts you think are important. You'll find some of those people in the 
Enterprise Working Group. You probably won't find any of them in this 
forum though.

- A