RE: Re: Sticking point

> From: Andrey Khavryuchenko [mailto:[email protected]]

> Stefan,
> 
> "SS" == STEURS Stefan wrote:
> 
>  >> From: Andrey Khavryuchenko [mailto:[email protected]]
>  >> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:43 AM
> 
>  >> Please tell me _immediately_ if I dare to disrespect 
>  >> somebody's free will.
> 
>  SS> I put the dynamics of a group versus the dynamics of 
> individuals.  What
>  SS> individuals want (free will) may not serve the group.
> 
> If the individuals associate themselves with the group, it will.

Only if they want the same thing or things that converge.  Far too often
they never converge, just watch discussion on 'the best O/S, the best
language, the best DBMS, the best ... fill it in yourself.  Uniformity is
the price for teamwork.  XP seems to be very strong on uniformity and makes
the team work.  Haven't experienced it myself but I've discussed often and
it emerges as one very strong point.

> 
>  SS> If we allow everyone to change anything any time, at 
> best we get chaos
>  SS> (smile), I like directed change so people pull/push/row 
> in the same
>  SS> direction.
> 
> No.  I have different experience.
> 
> People, when they find their source of power, regain the 
> sense of control
> of their free will, tend (to my experience) to state not only personal
> goals, but much more larger ones... Team goals, perhaps.  
> Company, city,
> country ones...  And these goals _are_ passionate.  And people tend to
> group around them.  They have no need for someone to pull, 
> push or row them
> in any manner: they have common goal.

That goal may to be far away.  E.g. engineers may think that the users need
"one model" of their problem domain because it makes maintenance easier.
But the engineers and the users are not going to agree because having only
one model imposes abstraction on the user while the user rather have many
concrete models.  Can go on for hours about this but I hope I don't have to.


> 
>  >> The only thing I'm trying to do is to be honest when 
> describing the
>  >> people what they do and what consequences they get.  Then 
> I leave them
>  >> free to decide what they're going to do (and to get).  Of 
> course, I
>  >> stay nearby to support them if they need.
> 
>  SS> I think it has to be more than that, somehow there should be a
>  SS> statement of direction.  I think managers need to lead and coach.
> 
> Free person can state his direction by himself.  If he'd need 
> a coach, he'd
> ask for it.

No, only extroverts do.  In 17 years of experience I've noticed that about
half of the developer rather struggle with a solution that they can "invent"
themselves rather than asking a coach/mentor/guru.  Why?  It's because of
personal pride and sense of achievement.  I understand and I accept it, I do
it myself sometimes.
> 
>  SS>> I want to make changes happen for normal people.  I 
> think it can be
>  SS>> done.
> 
>  >> My understanding of 'normal' is being perpendicular to 
> some surface.  I
>  >> don't know what's 'normal' people.  Each person is extraordinary.
>  >> Unfortunately most choose the safety of 'as usual' over results.
> 
>  SS> With normal I mean there is a norm, a mean.  I am not 
> interested so
>  SS> much in what I can to with the top of class or bottom of 
> the league
>  SS> (purely looking at how they are handling their job, not 
> in how they
>  SS> are being as a human), I am interested in "what can I do 
> for most".
> 
> Stefan, it seems to me that you're trying to label people: top class,
> bottom class, middle...

No.  It's the opposite, I want a solution for everyone, not just for the top
class.  Some of the discussions I see here seem to accept that there are
many different people with many different qualities.  There are few top
class but some of the discussions require top class abilities to reason
along.
> 
> I _believe_ that each person is unique and is able to achive 
> his/her (not
> mine) success.

Sorry.  Some people cannot achieve success all that easily.  I don't believe
in this fantastic American Dream or whatever I should call it by analogy.
> 
> Thus, when somebody asks to work in my team or expresses 
> interest in my/my
> company services, I respect his will and his power.  I 
> consider him to be
> able to achieve such high standard of well... being... as I 
> do.  That're
> simple things -- be on time, fulfill your promises, value 
> other people --
> and they are simple to do, if one considers them important.

A standard of being bears to my personal opinion nothing with a standard of
achievement.  Although it may help to improve your status of being when you
achieve something temporarily.  I think a higher standard of being is
reached in a totally different way but our capitalistic and achievement
oriented society thinks it lies in "achievement".  Think multi-cultural,
think large.  What kind of achievements are you referring to, perhaps I'm
misunderstanding you altogether.
> 
> In other words, I'm not looking on them as 'most'.  I treat 
> each as unique
> and being able to fly as high as he is capable imagining.

I believe in the uniqueness of every individual but I believe also that
apart from "capabilities" there are also "limitations".  Perhaps we have to
remember the story of Icarus.
> 
> Perhaps my message is not quite clear: English is not my 
> native language
> and putting feelings in foreign language is much harder that technical
> details.  If so, ask.

I am trying.  You're English is good enough for me and my mothertongue isn't
English either.
> 
>  SS> There is not enough time and not enough bandwidth to get 
> my essage
>  SS> across.
> 
> It's unfortunate.  I often learn much from reading your 
> communication with
> others and much more from direct talk.

Time is too short.  It's not an excuse, it's just a feeling I have in
general.

Stefan


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