Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Avi Kessner" <[email protected]> Thu, 5 Dec 2019 15:02:57 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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| Message-ID | <CAGEhWpGRGurQBH5aS65di-0OjSfk7n=ZJ9D7V4Qf_ja1gHW9rQ@mail.gmail.com> |
--000000000000022de10598f48d4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My suggestion was based on the success of CNCF, the existence of the CDF and the success of CI/CD and the annual report which gauges which companies are involved with CI/CD. As well as the confusion around the term DevOps. Ofcourse, DevSecOps, ChatOps, AIOps, GitOps etc are watering that down a bit. But CI/CD practices have their own set of successes without the XP label. We need to get that same sort of benchmarks and stats for the coding process itself. brought to you by the letters A, V, and I and the number 47 On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:43 PM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> wrote: > Hmm ... > > On Dec 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > > Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's OK. It took > me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do anything > except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for > others to change means everything is out of my control, and that is handy > if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any responsibility. These > days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recognize that people have > succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we are not "right," we > have a different approach that we think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in > large do not agree that it is better. > > > Hm. Heartfelt if not observably empathetic. :) > > Regarding Scrum itself, I am coming to believe that its users (cf > customers), by and large, probably do not agree that it is better, or, at > best, might agree that it's better in some ways and [much] worse in others. > I've pointed out to Howard that the Scrum Alliance doesn't know the answer > to this question, and that they really should. > > The issues with Scrum, from which we would need to learn, are probably > more complex than I can write or even understand, but there are some > components to consider: > > > 1. The initial dose needs to be followed by continuous learning, from > the beginning. > 2. It would be desirable not to be able to just say "we're doing > Scrum". Might be impossible. > 3. Certification without substance is very dangerous as well as > powerful. > 4. Sale of developer-focused learning is quite difficult: > 1. Takes much more time; > 2. Costs more; > 3. Companies often spend less, not more, on dev training. > > > There are new things to learn as well, not least that we probably have to > sell these ideas to developers, not so much to managers and executives. > Managers and executives are important here, but we have to reach the > developers. This will require a different kind of outreach than has worked > for Scrum and many other management ideas. > > I don't think it'll be easy: in fact, presently I find the challenge very > daunting, because the only approach I see requires vision, lots of > community building, much energy, and money, a combination that is in short > supply. > > My present concern is that the views expressed here by James Holmes, are > pretty solidly entrenched in the developer community. I think those views > are a bit mistaken, but they are consistent with the general developer > outlook and approach to things. To the extent that James' thoughts here > expressed a common strongly held view -- and I think they do -- it is quite > possible that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Alliance, cannot > successfully "market" these ideas to developers. > > That was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, deliver:Agile a couple > of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also described here. > <https://ronjeffries.com/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/> We may need to > literally form a new "anti-Agile" community to support these ideas, > abandoning the word "Agile" to the many ways it has been watered down and > perverted. > > Naturally, I'd prefer, and we should prefer, to build on what is already > there, rather than create what would appear to be a counter-movement. I'm > hoping, but less and less unless I can get some active assistance, to get > the Scrum Alliance's help with this. > > I want to underline a key point from above: it may be true that Scrum's > customers like Scrum. I believe that by and large, Scrum's users quite > often do not. This is a problem ... and an opportunity. > > Ron Jeffries > ronjeffries.com > Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160420): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160420 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --000000000000022de10598f48d4c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">My suggestion was based on the success of=C2=A0 CNCF, the = existence of the CDF and the success of CI/CD and the annual report which g= auges which companies are involved with CI/CD. As well as the confusion aro= und the term DevOps.<br><br>Ofcourse, DevSecOps, ChatOps, AIOps, GitOps etc= are watering that down a bit.=C2=A0 But CI/CD practices have their own set= of successes without the XP label.=C2=A0 We need to get that same sort of = benchmarks and stats for the coding process itself.<br><br clear=3D"all"><d= iv><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signa= ture">brought to you by the letters A, V, and I<br>and the number 47</div><= /div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma= il_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:43 PM Ron Jeffries <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wr= ap: break-word;">Hmm ...<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Dec = 4, 2019, at 8:03 PM, R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><span styl= e=3D"font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps= :normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde= nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decorat= ion:none;float:none;display:inline">Great. So we will not expect any innova= tion from you. That's OK. It took me a while to realize that Extreme Po= sitions don't really do anything except reflect on me. Calling things b= roken doesn't fix it. Waiting for others to change means everything is = out of my control, and that is handy if I want to criticize, and it absolve= s me of any responsibility. These days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to= recognize that people have succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate= . So we are not "right," we have a different approach that we thi= nk is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree that it is better.</sp= an></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div>Hm. Heartfelt if not observably = empathetic. :)<div><br></div><div>Regarding Scrum itself, I am coming to be= lieve that its users (cf customers), by and large, probably do not agree th= at it is better, or, at best, might agree that it's better in some ways= and [much] worse in others. I've pointed out to Howard that the Scrum = Alliance doesn't know the answer to this question, and that they really= should.</div><div><br></div><div>The issues with Scrum, from which we woul= d need to learn, are probably more complex than I can write or even underst= and, but there are some components to consider:</div><div><br></div><div><o= l><li>The initial dose needs to be followed by continuous learning, from th= e beginning.</li><li>It would be desirable not to be able to just say "= ;we're doing Scrum". Might be impossible.</li><li>Certification wi= thout substance is very dangerous as well as powerful.</li><li>Sale of deve= loper-focused learning is quite difficult:</li><ol><li>Takes much more time= ;</li><li>Costs more;</li><li>Companies often spend less, not more, on dev = training.</li></ol></ol><div><br></div><div>There are new things to learn a= s well, not least that we probably have to sell these ideas to developers, = not so much to managers and executives. Managers and executives are importa= nt here, but we have to reach the developers. This will require a different= kind of outreach than has worked for Scrum and many other management ideas= .=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I don't think it'll be easy: in fa= ct, presently I find the challenge very daunting, because the only approach= I see requires vision, lots of community building, much energy, and money,= a combination that is in short supply.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>My p= resent concern is that the views expressed here by James Holmes, are pretty= solidly entrenched in the developer community. I think those views are a b= it mistaken, but they are consistent with the general developer outlook and= approach to things. To the extent that James' thoughts here expressed = a common strongly held view -- and I think they do -- it is quite possible = that the Scrum Alliance, maybe even the Agile Alliance, cannot successfully= "market" these ideas to developers.</div><div><br></div><div>Tha= t was the point of Chet's and my talk at, what, deliver:Agile a couple = of years ago, "Abandon Agile", also=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://ronje= ffries.com/articles/018-01ff/abandon-1/" target=3D"_blank">described here.<= /a>=C2=A0We may need to literally form a new "anti-Agile" communi= ty to support these ideas, abandoning the word "Agile" to the man= y ways it has been watered down and perverted.</div><div><br></div><div>Nat= urally, I'd prefer, and we should prefer, to build on what is already t= here, rather than create what would appear to be a counter-movement. I'= m hoping, but less and less unless I can get some active assistance, to get= the Scrum Alliance's help with this.</div><div><br></div><div>I want t= o underline a key point from above: it may be true that Scrum's custome= rs like Scrum. I believe that by and large, Scrum's users quite often d= o not. This is a problem ... and an opportunity.</div><div> <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div s= tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent= :0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D= "color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:nor= mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space= :normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:norma= l;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-ind= ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>Ron Je= ffries</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant:normal;letter-spaci= ng:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-t= ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://ronjef= fries.com" target=3D"_blank">ronjeffries.com</a></div><div><span style=3D"b= order-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">Perfectionism is the voice of t= he oppressor -- Anne Lamott</span></div></div></div></div> </div> <br></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160420">View/Reply Online (#160420)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPri= vate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for= %20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --000000000000022de10598f48d4c--